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2018 Series v NZ

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1 minute ago, walter sobchak said:

Does this mean that Denver are the next North American franchise.

London could move out there and become the Denver........... oh ######.

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Denver is a crazy choice. There is no rugby league club there, not even at League One standard.

Toronto should be first choice, and if New York gets a team up and running by then, then make New York the second choice.

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Denver (well an exclave called Glendale) is home to the only 'rugby specific' stadium in the US holds about 5,000.  The MLS team plays in an 18,000 in suburbia. 

Very very disappointed if no London test. I guess we are just crossing our fingers and hoping people show up in 2021 rather then building momentum. 

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If BBC is showing the series (and IIRC they are contracted to do so) then it is criminal not to have a Test in London at either Wembley or the Olympic Stadium.

Edited by Manfred Mann
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39 minutes ago, walter sobchak said:

Does this mean that Denver are the next North American franchise.

I have read nothing on that. But it would be silly because of the increased travel time from Denver to the UK. Denver would be a good choice -- if you are given financial backing and a player pool --- if you were thinking of creating a stand alone North American league.

Better stick with East Coast teams like New York, Boston, Philadelphia etc. for now

Edited by Manfred Mann

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Firstly should be a Four Nations. We have Fiji and Tonga beating NZ, so no excuses and very poor planning to go back to 3x test series v NZ/Aus.

No London is a joke. We get the biggest crowds and are 'rewarded' with no games.

I wouldn't mind a game in the US, we need to start promoting the sport before 2025. But why are we playing NZ again? 4x in one year is ridiculous. 

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3 hours ago, BBR said:

Not going to happen. 

I think we all know that, but it is what the aim should be for any tours, likewise PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa & Lebanon all getting games against quality oppossition when England tour Aus or NZ.

Another 3 game series between NZ & England with tour games against club sides holds very little interest for me.. This is supposed to be the highlight event of the year for International RL supposedly, let's act like it.

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A lot of criticism about where tests might or might not be, but the RFL are doing well in getting tickets out early. They have also been criticicised in the past for not having a schedule years in advance. They do now. Now they are being criticised for having tests in the diary because it doesn’t allow them to be reactive to NZs unexpected poor showing at the World Cup. They also have to have tests in London, Bristol and Coventry to support expansion areas, which would cause uproar if all 3 a sthe heartlands would be neglected, or if they don’t pick one of the above expansion areas, it will lack foresight.

If London is missed, the 11k people who turned up for NZ in 2015 but not for a bigger game v Oz in 2016 are the ones to blame.

Therw has been a lot of criticism of Oz for not filling stadia at this World Cup on these boards. Therefore there should be people saying they are not going to next years games for some pretty arbitrary reasons.

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16 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

A lot of criticism about where tests might or might not be, but the RFL are doing well in getting tickets out early. They have also been criticicised in the past for not having a schedule years in advance. They do now. Now they are being criticised for having tests in the diary because it doesn’t allow them to be reactive to NZs unexpected poor showing at the World Cup. They also have to have tests in London, Bristol and Coventry to support expansion areas, which would cause uproar if all 3 a sthe heartlands would be neglected, or if they don’t pick one of the above expansion areas, it will lack foresight.

If London is missed, the 11k people who turned up for NZ in 2015 but not for a bigger game v Oz in 2016 are the ones to blame.

Therw has been a lot of criticism of Oz for not filling stadia at this World Cup on these boards. Therefore there should be people saying they are not going to next years games for some pretty arbitrary reasons.

When you start blaming the punters you are in trouble.

Highlighting the odd individual post about Coventry and Bristol as some kind of mass demand from RL fans is a bit silly too.

Are they getting criticism for having these Tests planned - I'd like to see that JB?

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Perhaps if the RFL actually bothered to advertise in London then people would know it's on. What's the point in only advertising in RL areas? We're not going to have 50k travelling down from Wigan. 

When was the last time Huddersfield or Hull sold out an international? Yet they seem to never miss out. 

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Just now, londonrlfan said:

Perhaps if the RFL actually bothered to advertise in London then people would know it's on. What's the point in only advertising in RL areas? We're not going to have 50k travelling down from Wigan. 

When was the last time Huddersfield or Hull sold out an international? Yet they seem to never miss out. 

Well tbf Huddersfield does usually sell well and did sell out for Eng v NZ last year and Eng V Ireland in the WC, but i get what you mean.

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

Well tbf Huddersfield does usually sell well and did sell out for Eng v NZ last year and Eng V Ireland in the WC, but i get what you mean.

24k capacity, it should be. Play in London in a 24k capacity and it would sell out. You're losing 40-50k fans by avoiding London and an audience in the south/capital city. 

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In 2013, we attracted 67,000 to watch an England match in London. If the reports are accurate, we will then have hosted two international matches in London from November 2013 to November 2020. That is criminal. How can we expect crowds to turn up if we don't have an annual London test?

We should have organised a repeat mid-season test against New Zealand in 2014 at Wembley again, because anyone who saw that 2013 match who have been desperate to go back again. Instead, we haven't had an international at Wembley since and one doesn't appear to be in the pipeline. Having regular annual matches in London (preferably the same venue) would help growth and build a reputation that this is more than just a sports match, it is a must see event.

The same applies to Newcastle. We have laid foundations with the Magic Weekend, why not build on it with a test match? Particularly if they will be a host venue in 2021.

Ditto Bristol. If a local went along to the USA vs Cooks match in 2013, they have not been given an opportunity to see a professional match again to date in their city. The next chance will be in 2019 with part-time players. We needed to strike whilst the iron was hot. The same for Coventry. We play there in 2016, and there is no plan to build on the modest success!

The most frustrating thing is that we don't appear to be learning lessons. We seem to stick a pin in a map and say we'll play an international in location x. Generally, the crowds are local, reasonably sized, and enthusiastic. So what do we do to capitalise on it? Nothing! Host a Super League match there the following year? No. Host another international there? No. 

The British public love success because we don't have that much of it. I guarantee that a crowd at Bristol or Coventry would appreciate us beating France by 30/40 points far more than a crowd at Leigh. But we either lack the resources, guts or foresight to go for it.

To be positive, UK international crowds have improved recently. We are now regularly selling out the likes of Huddersfield, Hull and Wigan. It's time for us to start using these venues for our matches against "tier 2" nations only and going bigger for the likes of New Zealand and Australia. That's why I'm all for one of the matches being held in a big heartland stadiums like Anfield, Etihad or Elland Road as long as we don't try and keep rugby league as a secret that only northerners can know about or attend.

Edited by Chris22
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We do need to be very careful about going over the top with expansion support for a three test series.

Three big grounds, one in the North West, one in the North East and one in London should be the template. I don't think there should be much movement from that. 

Of course things like 4N tournaments, or mid-season tests, or series' with more than 3 games allows you to start working on other areas like Coventry, Bristol etc.

Stick to that template and focusing on growing the crowds should be the aim.

If we sold 45k in Manchester, 40k in Leeds and 45k in London, that would be a very successful series vs the Kiwis.

Edited by Dave T
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13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We do need to be very careful about going over the top with expansion support for a three test series.

Three big grounds, one in the North West, one in the North East and one in London should be the template. I don't think there should be much movement from that. 

Of course things like 4N tournaments, or mid-season tests, or series' with more than 3 games allows you to start working on other areas like Coventry, Bristol etc.

Stick to that template and focusing on growing the crowds should be the aim.

If we sold 45k in Manchester, 40k in Leeds and 45k in London, that would be a very successful series vs the Kiwis.

Yes to all this, even if I don't have an Elland Road down as an event ground.

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25 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We do need to be very careful about going over the top with expansion support for a three test series.

Three big grounds, one in the North West, one in the North East and one in London should be the template. I don't think there should be much movement from that. 

Of course things like 4N tournaments, or mid-season tests, or series' with more than 3 games allows you to start working on other areas like Coventry, Bristol etc.

Stick to that template and focusing on growing the crowds should be the aim.

If we sold 45k in Manchester, 40k in Leeds and 45k in London, that would be a very successful series vs the Kiwis.

That's pretty much been my thinking for a while now

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9 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Yes to all this, even if I don't have an Elland Road down as an event ground.

Aye, Elland Road is appalling, but the folk of Yorkshire seem incapable of building decent sized grounds, so it has to be there or Newcastle for that side of the Pennines.

At least Elland Road looks good when full on tv.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

When you start blaming the punters you are in trouble.

Highlighting the odd individual post about Coventry and Bristol as some kind of mass demand from RL fans is a bit silly too.

Are they getting criticism for having these Tests planned - I'd like to see that JB?

There are people suggesting that it shouldn’t be NZ, it should be Fiji or Samoa, others a 4 Nations with some of those and NZ. Maybe if the RFL had a crystal ball or were organising for 2 years time.

 

The  point about potential for no London game was that London drastically underperformed in the 4 Nations. Anfield was a great success. So plenty of rationale for using Anfield alongside an expansion venue and somewhere in Yorkshire maybe. There are lots of different factors to consider, but people are threatening to ‘vote with their feet’ already. 

 

For me me the biggest requirement is sell out stadia, minimum 25k (Wigan, Hudd, Hull look good full on the TV). I’d like bigger and better, but that is the minimum. By publishing a 4 year schedule and putting tickets on sale a year out, RFL look keen to more than the minimum, which is great. Whilst the World Cup has been a success, and will be perceived more so by England at the final (fingers crossed) or even winning it (everything else crossed), empty stadia has been daamaging and a perception we need removed as we build to the World Cup. Years/ tournaments can go by without games in London. Not too many, but wouldn’t be the end of the world.

 

if we fail to fill venues in the heartlands or at expansion locations a year out, we are just as much to blame as NQC fans, or Sydneysiders for not travelling to Canberra for Oz v France, and there has been plenty of such criticism on here

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20 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

1. There are people suggesting that it shouldn’t be NZ, it should be Fiji or Samoa, others a 4 Nations with some of those and NZ. Maybe if the RFL had a crystal ball or were organising for 2 years time.

 

2 - The  point about potential for no London game was that London drastically underperformed in the 4 Nations. Anfield was a great success. So plenty of rationale for using Anfield alongside an expansion venue and somewhere in Yorkshire maybe. There are lots of different factors to consider, but people are threatening to ‘vote with their feet’ already. 

 

3 - For me me the biggest requirement is sell out stadia, minimum 25k (Wigan, Hudd, Hull look good full on the TV). I’d like bigger and better, but that is the minimum. By publishing a 4 year schedule and putting tickets on sale a year out, RFL look keen to more than the minimum, which is great. Whilst the World Cup has been a success, and will be perceived more so by England at the final (fingers crossed) or even winning it (everything else crossed), empty stadia has been daamaging and a perception we need removed as we build to the World Cup. Years/ tournaments can go by without games in London. Not too many, but wouldn’t be the end of the world.

 

4 - if we fail to fill venues in the heartlands or at expansion locations a year out, we are just as much to blame as NQC fans, or Sydneysiders for not travelling to Canberra for Oz v France, and there has been plenty of such criticism on here

1.That is completely different to your claim that people are criticising these Tests being arranged. You just wanted to oppress any criticism and wildly overstated the criticism that is happening.

2 - That rationale is extremely flawed. If you are basing solely on those games, let's get rid of the lowest crowd eh? And again, you are blaming people for not turning up - yet 3 years earlier 67k were interested, and 1 year earlier 44k were interested - do you think maybe it wasn't the fans that were to blame for these dwindling crowds? 

3 - Sounds like you are living in 2001. We did this. We went back to three modest grounds to reduce costs and fill them after the 2000 RLWC. We have grown these Test matches since then.

4 - not sure of your point - why do you think we will fail to sell them out? OUr home Test match crowds have been pretty decent, why the concern? I'm 100% confident we will smash that 12k mark. Aren't you? It's not even relevant to this it's such a low number.

Edited by Dave T

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This is genuinely where we can be a bit bolder and more shrewd. We could have approached Spurs and said look we are exploring London alternatives to Wembley for the Challenge Cup final and 2021 World Cup etc. Would you be interested in making us a deal to test the market with an England v NZ test in 2018.

With the timing and excitement of the new stadium there could be every chance we could hit 50k+ for this one. Plus it is a proper rectangular ground. That's the type of innovation that I'd like to see. The innovation that took us from grounds like Headingley, Hull and Wigan to Old Trafford for major tests a few decades ago.

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2 hours ago, Chris22 said:

In 2013, we attracted 67,000 to watch an England match in London. If the reports are accurate, we will then have hosted two international matches in London from November 2013 to November 2020. That is criminal. How can we expect crowds to turn up if we don't have an annual London test?

We should have organised a repeat mid-season test against New Zealand in 2014 at Wembley again, because anyone who saw that 2013 match who have been desperate to go back again. Instead, we haven't had an international at Wembley since and one doesn't appear to be in the pipeline. Having regular annual matches in London (preferably the same venue) would help growth and build a reputation that this is more than just a sports match, it is a must see event.

The same applies to Newcastle. We have laid foundations with the Magic Weekend, why not build on it with a test match? Particularly if they will be a host venue in 2021.

Ditto Bristol. If a local went along to the USA vs Cooks match in 2013, they have not been given an opportunity to see a professional match again to date in their city. The next chance will be in 2019 with part-time players. We needed to strike whilst the iron was hot. The same for Coventry. We play there in 2016, and there is no plan to build on the modest success!

The most frustrating thing is that we don't appear to be learning lessons. We seem to stick a pin in a map and say we'll play an international in location x. Generally, the crowds are local, reasonably sized, and enthusiastic. So what do we do to capitalise on it? Nothing! Host a Super League match there the following year? No. Host another international there? No. 

The British public love success because we don't have that much of it. I guarantee that a crowd at Bristol or Coventry would appreciate us beating France by 30/40 points far more than a crowd at Leigh. But we either lack the resources, guts or foresight to go for it.

To be positive, UK international crowds have improved recently. We are now regularly selling out the likes of Huddersfield, Hull and Wigan. It's time for us to start using these venues for our matches against "tier 2" nations only and going bigger for the likes of New Zealand and Australia. That's why I'm all for one of the matches being held in a big heartland stadiums like Anfield, Etihad or Elland Road as long as we don't try and keep rugby league as a secret that only northerners can know about or attend.

This. Post of the day. We can now close this thread as there is nothing more to add. Might be worth sending this to big Nige to help him out

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43 minutes ago, Dave T said:

1.That is completely different to your claim that people are criticising these Tests being arranged. You just wanted to oppress any criticism and wildly overstated the criticism that is happening.

2 - That rationale is extremely flawed. If you are basing solely on those games, let's get rid of the lowest crowd eh? And again, you are blaming people for not turning up - yet 3 years earlier 67k were interested, and 1 year earlier 44k were interested - do you think maybe it wasn't the fans that were to blame for these dwindling crowds? 

3 - Sounds like you are living in 2001. We did this. We went back to three modest grounds to reduce costs and fill them after the 2000 RLWC. We have grown these Test matches since then.

4 - not sure of your point - why do you think we will fail to sell them out? OUr home Test match crowds have been pretty decent, why the concern? I'm 100% confident we will smash that 12k mark. Aren't you? It's not even relevant to this it's such a low number.

Im not getting into a numbered argument Dave. They are valid criticisms of posts on here. I don’t think the RFL should be shot down for what they are rumoured to be doing when what they have done so far is meeting what is required. 

I stated 25k as an absolute minimum of sell outs, for reason stated, and also stated I hoped for much more.

Incidentally I agree with your venues and approach of building on them.  

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1 minute ago, JoneslessBishop said:

Im not getting into a numbered argument Dave. They are valid criticisms of posts on here. I don’t think the RFL should be shot down for what they are rumoured to be doing when what they have done so far is meeting what is required. 

I stated 25k as an absolute minimum of sell outs, for reason stated, and also stated I hoped for much more.

Incidentally I agree with your venues and approach of building on them.  

They really aren't valid criticisms. Everyone is happy with the fact tickets will be on sale - literally not a bad word about that. Some negativity around venues, based on rumours from one of the key RL sources (not on I trust tbf), and some want a 4N based on their excitement and positivity from the RLWC. Had you just stated 'let's wait and see what venues they announce before slating them' I would have agreed, but you bolstered your criticism with nothing points.

Your stated highest priority though was sellouts. Personally I'd take 40k at Anfield, 40k at Newcastle and 45k at London over 24k at Hull, Hudds and Wigan.

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