The Future is League

Ireland and France interested in staging world cup game

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Before the inevitable comment about 2013 get's posted - getting 5,000 people to turn up on an absolutely horrendous night in Limerick to watch a sport most people have never heard of is actually not bad.

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Going to 4 groups of 4 is very very risky, it could give the comp a very slow start, especially if then games are spread all over the place.

a 6 week comp where the big three definitely wont meet before week 5,

where there definitely won be all three of the big three games

where a sipi tau v siva tau isnt guaranteed

where a lot of the early games will be blow outs

and then games are spread across three different countries doesnt have an awful lot to hang its hat on especially in the early stages.

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Think we should give France all their own groupe games and a 1/4. They always get decent crowds so it's almost guaranteed that all 4 games will get 15,000 to 20,000 - that's 4 games ticked off.

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2 hours ago, damp squib said:

Before the inevitable comment about 2013 get's posted - getting 5,000 people to turn up on an absolutely horrendous night in Limerick to watch a sport most people have never heard of is actually not bad.

4 of us flew over for that game organised by an Irish lad from work. The weather put many off as it was awful but we had a brilliant time and already taking about going again, so hope they get a game.

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1 minute ago, Mr Frisky said:

Think we should give France all their own groupe games and a 1/4. They always get decent crowds so it's almost guaranteed that all 4 games will get 15,000 to 20,000 - that's 4 games ticked off.

I agree. France having their own group, at the very least, is a no brainer as the matches in France at the 2013 World Cup were well attended. It also importantly spreads out the financial burden a little more with 6 games less in England which means we are not as reliant on the same people to fill grounds. It also may have a knock on effect of increasing the attendances at the other games in England too as people wont have to pick and choose games as much.

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2 hours ago, damp squib said:

Before the inevitable comment about 2013 get's posted - getting 5,000 people to turn up on an absolutely horrendous night in Limerick to watch a sport most people have never heard of is actually not bad.

Look at some of the crowds in Australia we've just had for a bit of perspective.. Considering previous crowds, the profile of the game in Ireland and weather I would consider it a decent effort really.

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Intereeting to see if the bid team change their stance because at the start they seemed very set on England being the only host with some massive goals stated.

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I think I read only 14 grounds can be used.

1.Wembley

2. Olympic St

3. Old Trafford

4. Anfield

5. St James Park

6. Elland Rd

7. Hull FC

8. Man City

9. Hudds

10. Headingly

11. Coventry

12. St Helens

13. Warrington

14. Another London?

Quite honestly there is no place for France or Ireland here. The target average is 33k and going to Ireland will not help that - France could deliver modest successes like previous tournaments but to give them 6 games is far too much. Their 3 games at a push if they showed ambition and got financial backing.

Remember there is large financial support for this being an England World Cup with much around the Northern Powerhouse initiative so the majority, if not all games will be in England.

Id prefer France to be bidding for the first 8 team tournament.

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2 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

There was a young man from Limerick,

Who thought all rugby was clap and kick,

Then the World Cup came to town,

Got rid of his frown,

It’ll be the last time that he will take the mick!

Sorry, GR, but I don't think the position of Poet Laureate is currently vacant, so I would keep the day job, if I were you!

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13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think I read only 14 grounds can be used.

1.Wembley

2. Olympic St

3. Old Trafford

4. Anfield

5. St James Park

6. Elland Rd

7. Hull FC

8. Man City

9. Hudds

10. Headingly

11. Coventry

12. St Helens

13. Warrington

14. Another London?

Quite honestly there is no place for France or Ireland here. The target average is 33k and going to Ireland will not help that - France could deliver modest successes like previous tournaments but to give them 6 games is far too much. Their 3 games at a push if they showed ambition and got financial backing.

Remember there is large financial support for this being an England World Cup with much around the Northern Powerhouse initiative so the majority, if not all games will be in England.

Id prefer France to be bidding for the first 8 team tournament.

https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/national/rugby-football-league-confirmed-as-northern-powerhouse-partner

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Going to 4 groups of 4 is very very risky, it could give the comp a very slow start, especially if then games are spread all over the place.

a 6 week comp where the big three definitely wont meet before week 5,

where there definitely won be all three of the big three games

where a sipi tau v siva tau isnt guaranteed

where a lot of the early games will be blow outs

and then games are spread across three different countries doesnt have an awful lot to hang its hat on especially in the early stages.

That's why they have to intelligent in deciding on the 4 groups, basing the groupings on rankings to minimize blowouts and perhaps having different numbers of teams qualifying from different groups as I suggested in the 16 teams in 2021 World Cup thread.

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France have had some great crowds in the past on home soil. It would be a great shame not to build on that. 

Avignon has been crowds of 18k in recent years and I’m sure a France game in Perpignan would get 14k. I have no doubt hosting the France games on home soil would get bigger crowds and be an easier sell than over here, making a lot more money. I think France v PNG in Hull last WC got 7k.... you could more than double that in France. 

Give them 3 group games in my option. Montpellier, Avignon and Paris. It would be tempting to give them a quarter final if you could be sure France would get there.

The prospect of another game in Ireland doesn’t excite me as much unless they can somehow guarantee a blockbuster crowd. There is barely any fan base there. The main focus for Ireland should be getting mainstream coverage for what is always a very competitive squad. 

I would like to see Wales games played in Wales as well, but not in small places like Neath, I think that game only got 5k at the last World Cup. It should be Wrexham and Cardiff/Swansea. 

 

I personally think the target of a 33k average is unrealistic. They should be looking at opening and closing the tournament at Wembley and selling it out both times. England semi final at Old Trafford sold out, another Semi final at Elland Road sold out. Then I think we should target an average of 15k for the rest of the games. 

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6 hours ago, damp squib said:

Before the inevitable comment about 2013 get's posted - getting 5,000 people to turn up on an absolutely horrendous night in Limerick to watch a sport most people have never heard of is actually not bad.

Inevitably...

I would rather try staging a match in North Korea. At least you'll get a crowd.

Ok, so 5,000 turned up. How many tickets got sold? Not many more, I betcha. And to watch one of the greatest sporting teams against their national side.

Don't believe they "hadn't heard of it". They had. And they don't care.

Take an England v Ireland match to Dublin first as a tester. If it doesn't get 20,000 through the gate, file the whole idea of a World Cup game, or throwing any money at the game in the Emerald Isle, under 'bin'.

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1 minute ago, absentee thoughtlord said:

Inevitably...

I would rather try staging a match in North Korea. At least you'll get a crowd.

Ok, so 5,000 turned up. How many tickets got sold? Not many more, I betcha. And to watch one of the greatest sporting teams against their national side.

Don't believe they "hadn't heard of it". They had. And they don't care.

Take an England v Ireland match to Dublin first as a tester. If it doesn't get 20,000 through the gate, file the whole idea of a World Cup game, or throwing any money at the game in the Emerald Isle, under 'bin'.

20k crowds are the minimum standard now? Well that "files" every country in the world in the RL 'bin'.

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1 hour ago, absentee thoughtlord said:

Setting the bar.

I'd call 5,000 pretty low in that regard.

I'd call 20k unrealistic, Australia, NZ and England get plenty of crowds under 20k and I don't any other nation has drawn above 20k in recent history, probably going back to France in the glory days when they were up there with the best.

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8 hours ago, Cdd said:

France have had some great crowds in the past on home soil. It would be a great shame not to build on that. 

Avignon has been crowds of 18k in recent years and I’m sure a France game in Perpignan would get 14k. I have no doubt hosting the France games on home soil would get bigger crowds and be an easier sell than over here, making a lot more money. I think France v PNG in Hull last WC got 7k.... you could more than double that in France. 

Give them 3 group games in my option. Montpellier, Avignon and Paris. It would be tempting to give them a quarter final if you could be sure France would get there.

The prospect of another game in Ireland doesn’t excite me as much unless they can somehow guarantee a blockbuster crowd. There is barely any fan base there. The main focus for Ireland should be getting mainstream coverage for what is always a very competitive squad. 

I would like to see Wales games played in Wales as well, but not in small places like Neath, I think that game only got 5k at the last World Cup. It should be Wrexham and Cardiff/Swansea. 

 

I personally think the target of a 33k average is unrealistic. They should be looking at opening and closing the tournament at Wembley and selling it out both times. England semi final at Old Trafford sold out, another Semi final at Elland Road sold out. Then I think we should target an average of 15k for the rest of the games. 

Agree with the above. If you could sell out or come close to all those grounds for semis and finals and opener, well that would be a very good showing.

I would take a risk and give France a quarter final in perpignan as that way even if they don't make it, a game like Samoa v Lebanon may still pull in the crowd it would have done in the north of England. 

I would not give Ireland a game. Not enough interest there for that.

Ps I would stick with 14 teams and present format with a little tweak or two or if they must go 16 the groups have to be loaded ie,  3 from group A and B and 1 from group C and D.

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A few quick points from me:

1. Supergroups/loaded groups, etc.

While IMO not at all a bad idea for reasons others have stated above, this is basically a continuation of the current structure and I think is therefore completely off the radar. The move to 4x4 is intended to get away from that and the situation that happened with Ireland & Samoa this time round (the quotes in the article in Post 1 basically say as much)

 

2. Games in France

I agree with posters above that it makes sense to hold France's own group games in France - think PNG this time round. This world cup would have been improved if the momentum of those three group games in PNG had been carried into a quarter final - and the same idea applies to France next time, so having a QF there is also a good idea.

This makes sense financially, as attendances likely to be good in France (as explained better by someone above) as compared to holding the same games in England. It would also be a big shot in the arm for the game in France and that is both good for RL in general and good for England in the long term if we are ever to have a viable opponent in our own continent.

 

3. Game in Ireland

Most important thing to consider here is: what is the point of holding a game in Limerick (or elsewhere on the island of Ireland)? I would agree that the game held there in 2013 was a success in terms of that turnout on a bad weather night (incidentally I'd love to see RL World Cups played mid-season in our summer.... but that ain't gonna happen), but did it have any impact in Ireland at all? Did it leave any legacy? (The idea that the relevant parties want to hold another game there, is I suppose, some sort of legacy in itself, but a very very small one).

There's always talk of a League 1 side in Ireland, but it has never happened - the finance just isn't there. If that League 1 side were actually coming about, then having a WC at the same venue would make some sense, but otherwise, I doubt there's a lot of point in having a WC game in Ireland - much as my heart loves the idea, my head says the only benefits really are to the local economy and the chance for a getaway for some English fans.

 

Oops, did I say quick points?

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17 hours ago, damp squib said:

Before the inevitable comment about 2013 get's posted - getting 5,000 people to turn up on an absolutely horrendous night in Limerick to watch a sport most people have never heard of is actually not bad.

I think the only workable location would be Dublin, Easily accessible to everybody in England & Ireland

i just don’t know enough about the grounds there that would be suitable as my knowledge says they’re all too big

I would say a 10k crowd would be fantastic, however as Dave T has alluded too the target of 1m spectators wouldn’t be compatible with too many sub 25k crowds

 

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In 2013, France staged two games and averaged 14.5k. 

In 2000, France staged a whole group and averaged 5.6k.

For me, if they are to be given their own games, they need to be committing to an average of 22-25k. Their three games need to step up size-wise, just as England's have to as well.

Just getting 11.5k in Perpignan again isn't success and growth.

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28 minutes ago, mrfranco said:

A few quick points from me:

1. Supergroups/loaded groups, etc.

While IMO not at all a bad idea for reasons others have stated above, this is basically a continuation of the current structure and I think is therefore completely off the radar. The move to 4x4 is intended to get away from that and the situation that happened with Ireland & Samoa this time round (the quotes in the article in Post 1 basically say as much)

 

2. Games in France

I agree with posters above that it makes sense to hold France's own group games in France - think PNG this time round. This world cup would have been improved if the momentum of those three group games in PNG had been carried into a quarter final - and the same idea applies to France next time, so having a QF there is also a good idea.

This makes sense financially, as attendances likely to be good in France (as explained better by someone above) as compared to holding the same games in England. It would also be a big shot in the arm for the game in France and that is both good for RL in general and good for England in the long term if we are ever to have a viable opponent in our own continent.

 

3. Game in Ireland

Most important thing to consider here is: what is the point of holding a game in Limerick (or elsewhere on the island of Ireland)? I would agree that the game held there in 2013 was a success in terms of that turnout on a bad weather night (incidentally I'd love to see RL World Cups played mid-season in our summer.... but that ain't gonna happen), but did it have any impact in Ireland at all? Did it leave any legacy? (The idea that the relevant parties want to hold another game there, is I suppose, some sort of legacy in itself, but a very very small one).

There's always talk of a League 1 side in Ireland, but it has never happened - the finance just isn't there. If that League 1 side were actually coming about, then having a WC at the same venue would make some sense, but otherwise, I doubt there's a lot of point in having a WC game in Ireland - much as my heart loves the idea, my head says the only benefits really are to the local economy and the chance for a getaway for some English fans.

 

Oops, did I say quick points?

Good post. However what legacy would you expect for holding a one off game in Ireland? If they are committing funds, I have no issue with spreading the love and it might help long term. You continue to plant seeds, not everyone will germinate but you can’t just host a one-off game there and if a League 1 side doesn’t materialise, say it’s not worth it. 

The game is finally developing some pathways in Ireland and whilst at embryonic stage, a WC game could be a good catalyst 

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17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In 2013, France staged two games and averaged 14.5k. 

In 2000, France staged a whole group and averaged 5.6k.

For me, if they are to be given their own games, they need to be committing to an average of 22-25k. Their three games need to step up size-wise, just as England's have to as well.

Just getting 11.5k in Perpignan again isn't success and growth.

But those crowds for 2013 are still far greater than what would be got in England for France games. As difficult as it may be there is still a far greater chance of getting 20k+ in France for a France game than in England. 

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3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Good post. However what legacy would you expect for holding a one off game in Ireland? If they are committing funds, I have no issue with spreading the love and it might help long term. You continue to plant seeds, not everyone will germinate but you can’t just host a one-off game there and if a League 1 side doesn’t materialise, say it’s not worth it. 

The game is finally developing some pathways in Ireland and whilst at embryonic stage, a WC game could be a good catalyst 

I'm not against the idea of holding a game in Ireland - in fact in my heart I love the idea - but ultimately it's going to be a competitive process and they'll have to demonstrate  their worth to the organisers (versus other potential venues).

From the legacy point of view (and that's difficult to assess against the pure financials), I guess the point would be for it not to just be a one-off, i.e. any game really should be linked in with the oft talked-about push to get a league 1 club, or at least with the Ireland games in the European Championships/new 6 nations tournament, etc. If all of that is happening in Dublin, would it make sense to play a WC game in Limerick?? 

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