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The Daddy

What's happening with Odsal?

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Read somewhere recently that the RFL were planning some development work at Odsal. 

Anyone know what the plan is? And does it involve developing the stadium itself? 

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11 minutes ago, The Daddy said:

Read somewhere recently that the RFL were planning some development work at Odsal. 

Anyone know what the plan is? And does it involve developing the stadium itself? 

If true does the RFL membership i.e. the rest of the clubs get any say in where and how the RFL spend any money they may have spare?

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1 minute ago, deluded pom? said:

If true does the RFL membership i.e. the rest of the clubs get any say in where and how the RFL spend any money they may have spare?

Not sure but from the little piece I remember there was talk of developing a training centre and some offices. 

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32 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Here we go again.... 

Indeed :(

A simple answer is...the only people who know are clearly not saying anything. 

And virtually nothing new of any demonstrable veracity has entered the public domain, certainly since the RFL selected as owner of Bulls 4.0 the only bidder that apparently was not insisting on recovering the stadium from the RFL.  So all the rest of us can do is continue to regurgitate speculation - of varying degrees of reasonableness or otherwise. 

I have given my own speculation on here enough times, and that includes filling in the hole with inert landfill then selling it off, and redeveloping the (impoverished) council-owned Richard Dunn site over the road, probably with a very handsome profit and new location for the RFL, and a Bulls operation kept in being in some basic form so the RFL does not forfeit the long lease in the meantime.  And thus far nothing further has transpired to cause me to change that speculation, but neither has anything new transpired to in any way support it.  It remains pure speculation, albeit based on the only scenario that has ever made any economic sense to me.

Lets have yet another thread by all means; but until and unless we actually get any new information, all it seems likely to do is provide yet another opportunity to rehash the history of recent years?  And to once again rehash the urban myths and legends and prejudices and selective recollections that plague that history?

 

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21 hours ago, The Daddy said:

Read somewhere recently that the RFL were planning some development work at Odsal. 

Anyone know what the plan is? And does it involve developing the stadium itself? 

They're going to redecorate the baby changing facility.

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14 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

They're going to redecorate the baby changing facility.

That's obviously so they can meet the SL stadium criteria 

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3 hours ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

Why don't the bulls move the Bradford Park Avenue and redevelop their ground over time? PA want to become a football league club in the future so they could develop a decent modern facility there

(Can we have a sticky for the first sentence or two, John...?)

Because the RFL very specifically will not allow it, or any other option than Odsal? Seems they made it very clear that whoever they allowed to become Bulls 4.0 had to play at Odsal,  and had to disabuse themselves of any idea of getting the stadium back off the RFL.  As well as a host of other conditions, like paying off the rugby creditors of the previous failed club, having to fulfil the fixtures even though they had no team on the eve of the season, and having to maintain a SL-level academy even though they had lost half or more of them.

All of which looks to have driven away every other potential new owner who made themsleves public (most of whom appeared, from what was said, to regard getting hold of the stadum site as fundamental to their bid) leaving only Wood's mates.  The little matters of the RFL owning the 150 year peppercorn head lease on the stadium, which stadium is on a site probably worth a lot of money if (when...) redeveloped for other uses, and where we assume the continuing right to the head lease does require professional RL to be played on the site, may or may not be in any way relevant to the RFL's actions...?

In any case, Horsfall is owned by the Council, so they not BPA ultimately call the shots there.

While we are on that subject: the Council also own the large RIchard Dunn site across the road from Odsal. And its sports centre, which they have stated is highly uneconomic and they will be demolishing soon.  And replacing with a more modest and much cheaper facility on the same site...if only they could find the funding for it all.  And the council will likely have the final say about the Odsal site, since not only are they still the freeholder, they can also significantly influence (at the very least) how the site - and how Richard Dunn and how Horsfall - are developed. And we know from past debacles that the Council has no money to do anything, and that even if it did there would be hell to pay from Council Tax payers other than Bulls supporters if they spent anything that was seen to be supporting the Bulls.

Of course, if some scheme could be cobbled together to get the Bulls out of Odsal, freeing up the site, whilst at the same time solving the Council's problem with the Richard Dunn centre and site; the RFL's issue of holding an asset on its books which cost them far far less than the likely value of the site and wanting to demonstrate what an astute financial move it really was; the Council's need to try and keep what used to be one of the few remaining positives for the city around and hopefully see it regain some of its former status; the RFL not wanting to see the Bulls club and name - and especially its academy and potential pulling-power - lost to the game - all whilst guaranteeing that no-one else (opportunists or otherwise) could profit from the Odsal site - then who knows what might be possible? If ONLY some such scheme was in any way possible or practicable...

And of course, should some such scheme nevertheles miraculously be practicable and a new, modest stadium was to be built on part of the  Richard Dunn site, maybe a certain soccer club would want (or could be encouraged) to share that stadium? Especially since the Horsfall site would probably be worth a shedload for housing, and no doubt as existing tenant BPA would expect some significant reward for surrendering their lease?

Of course, all that is clearly a total flight of fancy, isn't it?  And the real reason is because this is Bradford, whose role in life these days is to keep the rest of the game entertained with its ongoing serial car crash?  After all, what other reason could there be for the RFL rejecting every bidder who seemed to have any money, and insisting on holding onto the millstone that is Odsal?

 

Edited by Adeybull

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30 minutes ago, The Daddy said:

That's obviously so they can meet the SL stadium criteria 

Naturally! :rtfm:;)

 

Not sure whether what is left up at Odsal still HAS a baby-changing facility, but no matter...

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Adey, you are wasting your time ,as my old Irish grandad used to say" you can not educate pork".In other words why bother to try to explain things to those who do not want to know.

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3 minutes ago, fairfolly said:

Adey, you are wasting your time ,as my old Irish grandad used to say" you can not educate pork".In other words why bother to try to explain things to those who do not want to know.

In fairness FF, the guy I was responding to looked to be asking a perfectly reasonable question?  One that numerous Bulls supporters also asked at the time the RFL was deciding what the future of the Bulls was, since it seemed a pretty obvious option?

Only those involved will know why some combination of the various interested parties prevented such a solution, or determined it was unrealistic? My own flight of fancy is, and remains nothing more than that until or unless some new information enters the public domain.

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55 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

(Can we have a sticky for the first sentence or two, John...?)

Because the RFL very specifically will not allow it, or any other option than Odsal? Seems they made it very clear that whoever they allowed to become Bulls 4.0 had to play at Odsal,  and had to disabuse themselves of any idea of getting the stadium back off the RFL.  As well as a host of other conditions, like paying off the rugby creditors of the previous failed club, having to fulfil the fixtures even though they had no team on the eve of the season, and having to maintain a SL-level academy even though they had lost half or more of them.

All of which looks to have driven away every other potential new owner who made themsleves public (most of whom appeared, from what was said, to regard getting hold of the stadum site as fundamental to their bid) leaving only Wood's mates.  The little matters of the RFL owning the 150 year peppercorn head lease on the stadium, which stadium is on a site probably worth a lot of money if (when...) redeveloped for other uses, and where we assume the continuing right to the head lease does require professional RL to be played on the site, may or may not be in any way relevant to the RFL's actions...?

In any case, Horsfall is owned by the Council, so they not BPA ultimately call the shots there.

While we are on that subject: the Council also own the large RIchard Dunn site across the road from Odsal. And its sports centre, which they have stated is highly uneconomic and they will be demolishing soon.  And replacing with a more modest and much cheaper facility on the same site...if only they could find the funding for it all.  And the council will likely have the final say about the Odsal site, since not only are they still the freeholder, they can also significantly influence (at the very least) how the site - and how Richard Dunn and how Horsfall - are developed. And we know from past debacles that the Council has no money to do anything, and that even if it did there would be hell to pay from Council Tax payers other than Bulls supporters if they spent anything that was seen to be supporting the Bulls.

Of course, if some scheme could be cobbled together to get the Bulls out of Odsal, freeing up the site, whilst at the same time solving the Council's problem with the Richard Dunn centre and site; the RFL's issue of holding an asset on its books which cost them far far less than the likely value of the site and wanting to demonstrate what an astute financial move it really was; the Council's need to try and keep what used to be one of the few remaining positives for the city around and hopefully see it regain some of its former status; the RFL not wanting to see the Bulls club and name - and especially its academy and potential pulling-power - lost to the game - all whilst guaranteeing that no-one else (opportunists or otherwise) could profit from the Odsal site - then who knows what might be possible? If ONLY some such scheme was in any way possible or practicable...

And of course, should some such scheme nevertheles miraculously be practicable and a new, modest stadium was to be built on part of the  Richard Dunn site, maybe a certain soccer club would want (or could be encouraged) to share that stadium? Especially since the Horsfall site would probably be worth a shedload for housing, and no doubt as existing tenant BPA would expect some significant reward for surrendering their lease?

Of course, all that is clearly a total flight of fancy, isn't it?  And the real reason is because this is Bradford, whose role in life these days is to keep the rest of the game entertained with its ongoing serial car crash?  After all, what other reason could there be for the RFL rejecting every bidder who seemed to have any money, and insisting on holding onto the millstone that is Odsal?

 

I think as well the RFLs obsession with Odsal goes back to the idea of it becoming a home for England RL and moving HQ there.

To me Odsal is a white elephant; it's capacity of 27,000 is far too large for a team playing in league 1 and the only major redevelopment it's has is the hospitality flats at the South end and the covered seating in the east. 

Unless the current regime at the bulls are going to spend money on it I can't see the RFL and Bradford council putting any money towards it unless City left valley parade which will never happen

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10 minutes ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

I think as well the RFLs obsession with Odsal goes back to the idea of it becoming a home for England RL and moving HQ there.

To me Odsal is a white elephant; it's capacity of 27,000 is far too large for a team playing in league 1 and the only major redevelopment it's has is the hospitality flats at the South end and the covered seating in the east. 

Unless the current regime at the bulls are going to spend money on it I can't see the RFL and Bradford council putting any money towards it unless City left valley parade which will never happen

It may well do.  And the opportunity to get hold of the site on fire-sale terms.

The Southbank is no "hospitality flats" - have you ever been in there? It is a pretty substantial hospitality facility., spoiled only by the crazy decision to build it crescent-shaped. That decision means that the main, and pretty large function room is curved - so you cannot see one end fromn the other. Not helpful when the stage is at one end!  Seats about 800.

The Main Stand was redeveloped by the Council for the 1989 Speedway World Cup. so that is getting on for 30 years ago now.  Seats 5,300.

The rest of the site is a haphazard collection of legacy buildings that saw better days many years ago, huge swathes of open terracing and substantial car parks and other flat areas around the rim.

All the previous plans involved very major expenditure, not helped one bit by the physical nature of the site. Including the old industrial waste tip.

Forget the fantasy stupid "Superbowl" plan - that was surely never going to see the light of day?. The planned redevelopment with Tesco - stymied IMO by the council in a bid to save Bradford City by the back door - would have meant a partial filling-in of the bowl, and was only ever going to be viable with a big retail partner a la Wire.  But the days of supermarkets buying your ground, or funding a development next door are long gone. The "Sporting Village" fell foul of the Great Recession, but looked to have needed too much public funding, and would have involved about 3m tonnes of inert landfill first to fill in the bowl. The plans proposed for a massive cantilever stand development over the popular terrace never got off the ground.  Bulls 1.0 and 1.1 cannot be accused of not trying to develop the place, though!

As far as I can see, we will never ever see any development of the Odsal bowl. If it made no financial sense before, it sure as hell will not now. Neither the council nor the RFL have any significant money to spend on any development, nor would they be allowed to anyway by their respective constituencies, I suspect?

For me, the bowl will surely end up being filled in with inert landfill then developed for industrial/commercial units (I suspect not for housing, given what lies underneath?). It is one of the most accessible motorway-adjacent sites available in the county, especially if the land below down to the M606 was opened up and a new access road built. I feel sure this must have been what the other bidders had in mind for the site?  Indeed, this was the excuse the RFL used at the time when it "saved" the "iconic" Odsal Stadium from the "circling predators", was it not...?

So, why is the RFL hanging on to the site? If surely it will never be practicable or cost-effective to redeveloped it for RL?  And as you rightly say, it is totally inappropriate for purpose - for ANY RL club, let alone one that has fallen so low.  And what may or may not be going on behind the scenes, since there seems to be considerable confidence and optimism around the Bulls 4.0 operation?   I guess time will tell whether any part of my flight-of-fancy bird has any legs...or wings?  I can only hope, for the sake of all the various stakeholders, the bird IS soon seen to have some fucntioning appendages; and is not instead shown to be more akin to Monty Python's parrot.

 

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40 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

It may well do.  And the opportunity to get hold of the site on fire-sale terms.

The Southbank is no "hospitality flats" - have you ever been in there? It is a pretty substantial hospitality facility., spoiled only by the crazy decision to build it crescent-shaped. That decision means that the main, and pretty large function room is curved - so you cannot see one end fromn the other. Not helpful when the stage is at one end!  Seats about 800.

The Main Stand was redeveloped by the Council for the 1989 Speedway World Cup. so that is getting on for 30 years ago now.  Seats 5,300.

The rest of the site is a haphazard collection of legacy buildings that saw better days many years ago, huge swathes of open terracing and substantial car parks and other flat areas around the rim.

All the previous plans involved very major expenditure, not helped one bit by the physical nature of the site. Including the old industrial waste tip.

Forget the fantasy stupid "Superbowl" plan - that was surely never going to see the light of day?. The planned redevelopment with Tesco - stymied IMO by the council in a bid to save Bradford City by the back door - would have meant a partial filling-in of the bowl, and was only ever going to be viable with a big retail partner a la Wire.  But the days of supermarkets buying your ground, or funding a development next door are long gone. The "Sporting Village" fell foul of the Great Recession, but looked to have needed too much public funding, and would have involved about 3m tonnes of inert landfill first to fill in the bowl. The plans proposed for a massive cantilever stand development over the popular terrace never got off the ground.  Bulls 1.0 and 1.1 cannot be accused of not trying to develop the place, though!

As far as I can see, we will never ever see any development of the Odsal bowl. If it made no financial sense before, it sure as hell will not now. Neither the council nor the RFL have any significant money to spend on any development, nor would they be allowed to anyway by their respective constituencies, I suspect?

For me, the bowl will surely end up being filled in with inert landfill then developed for industrial/commercial units (I suspect not for housing, given what lies underneath?). It is one of the most accessible motorway-adjacent sites available in the county, especially if the land below down to the M606 was opened up and a new access road built. I feel sure this must have been what the other bidders had in mind for the site?  Indeed, this was the excuse the RFL used at the time when it "saved" the "iconic" Odsal Stadium from the "circling predators", was it not...?

So, why is the RFL hanging on to the site? If surely it will never be practicable or cost-effective to redeveloped it for RL?  And as you rightly say, it is totally inappropriate for purpose - for ANY RL club, let alone one that has fallen so low.  And what may or may not be going on behind the scenes, since there seems to be considerable confidence and optimism around the Bulls 4.0 operation?   I guess time will tell whether any part of my flight-of-fancy bird has any legs...or wings?  I can only hope, for the sake of all the various stakeholders, the bird IS soon seen to have some fucntioning appendages; and is not instead shown to be more akin to Monty Python's parrot.

 

Like I said unless an investor comes in and decides to spend money on Odsal it will never be developed, Andrew Chalmers only said he wants to redevelop the ground to keep fans sweet.

The more sensible option would have been to let an investor fill the bowl in and build a new stadium on the site, fit for Super League or demolish Richard Dunns and build a ground there. From what Ive heard I think offices are going to be built on Richard Dunns and the RFL will move in there. 

I thought the Sporting Village was moved to Don Valley instead as part of the 'Olympic Legacy'? 

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many fans want a national stadium for league, Odsal would fit the bill, also develop it  so as to allow speedway back in, I read somewhere that their is interest in reforming the Bradford dukes,

the extra income from speedway would be a plus, also grants  from sport England and the lottery could be accessed to help with the development, just look at what UK athletics have done in Birmingham ,even sports like hockey have their own national stadium,

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12 minutes ago, West Leeds Riviera said:

Like I said unless an investor comes in and decides to spend money on Odsal it will never be developed, Andrew Chalmers only said he wants to redevelop the ground to keep fans sweet.

The more sensible option would have been to let an investor fill the bowl in and build a new stadium on the site, fit for Super League or demolish Richard Dunns and build a ground there. From what Ive heard I think offices are going to be built on Richard Dunns and the RFL will move in there. 

I thought the Sporting Village was moved to Don Valley instead as part of the 'Olympic Legacy'? 

Any new stadium will be built on the RD site or nowhere, IMO. Nothing else makes any financial sense. And the RFL effectively excluded any investor from coming in to develop Odsal.

The Sporting Village was a Bradford initiative that went by the wayside. I don't recall it had any national involvement beyond maybe some of the prospective funding? Seemed to me anyway that once the NHS decided to sell the adjacent old hospital site for development - rather than look to a combined development of what would have been a pretty massive combined site - the feasibility of the sporting village was negated.

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28 minutes ago, owls said:

many fans want a national stadium for league, Odsal would fit the bill, also develop it  so as to allow speedway back in, I read somewhere that their is interest in reforming the Bradford dukes,

the extra income from speedway would be a plus, also grants  from sport England and the lottery could be accessed to help with the development, just look at what UK athletics have done in Birmingham ,even sports like hockey have their own national stadium,

I'm not too bothered about having a national stadium tbh, I'd rather see England tour the entire country, much like football where the national team has been tied to Wembley for the past decade England RLshoild be constructed to just Odsal/ the north. 

And I doubt it would receive any government/ sport England funding. Odsal current capacity is 27,000 for a national stadium I think that too small. Look at the venue for NZ tour, Anfield 50,000, KCOM 25,000, Elland Road, 38,000

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It was my understanding before the Brexit vote that the RFL were more than hopeful of getting EU funding to rebuild the whole stadium bit by bit and move lock stock and barrel into it, and play internationals there and Challenge cup semi final as well as it still being the Bulls home ground. I think they also intented to buy the lease of the council

I guess that's not going to happen now.

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

It was my understanding before the Brexit vote that the RFL were more than hopeful of getting EU funding to rebuild the whole stadium bit by bit and move lock stock and barrel into it, and play internationals there and Challenge cup semi final as well as it still being the Bulls home ground. I think they also intented to buy the lease of the council

I guess that's not going to happen now.

I’ve heard Brexit blamed for a lot of things, but not the state of Odsal Stadium before 😂

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13 minutes ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

I’ve heard Brexit blamed for a lot of things, but not the state of Odsal Stadium before 😂

No i wasn't blaming Brexit, but what i was saying was the EU is not going to provide the money for Odsal with the UK leaving the EU

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13 hours ago, The Future is League said:

No i wasn't blaming Brexit, but what i was saying was the EU is not going to provide the money for Odsal with the UK leaving the EU

Do you have any links or sources to back up that info? 

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