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Old Frightful

H&M...Racist or a breath of fresh air?

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11 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

However, the next sweatshirt along was being worn by a white boy with another monkey and jungle message on it which was highlighted as reinforcing racism, so H&M dropped the whole lot.

 

There was no monkey message on the white boy's jumper, but the exact same point stands, it is not the jumpers that were the issue - it was the images. They have been removed, job done.

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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

The line you refer to I think came from the Independent article I linked to, I'm not sure anybody here said that.

Aha!, I think you might just be right there mate. That explains why I can't see it anymore.

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4 hours ago, Dave T said:

There was no monkey message on the white boy's jumper, but the exact same point stands, it is not the jumpers that were the issue - it was the images. They have been removed, job done.

My mate married a rather sectarian Protestant lady.  I am Catholic, but we got on well, they even travelled to the USA for my wedding.  For this wedding, one gift was a Stelton bottle opener:

 

She started playing it like a flute and then I cam ein and saw her.  Her face froze as she realized the context.

I laughed, she said sorry, I told her it was fine and we both laughed about it.

I could see it was a mistake and did not claim to be persucuted.  But, she apologised, because of how it looked.  This is similar and I think most people see it the same.

 

Billedresultat for Stelton bottle opener
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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

If black people are against being labelled monkeys, or having bananas thrown at them, or monkey chants at them (all still things that occur) - why are you so passionate about defending your right to call black kids monkeys?

All kids are not monkeys, it is a word we choose (and I call my daughter it), but we moderate our language all the time, if I am told that calling a black person is racist, then why would I want to insist I am allowed to?

Can I put it another way?, and if I'm correct in my guessing I hope I go a bit of a way to explain why some people don't see a problem with the advert or, indeed, calling all children monkeys. 

What about a group of children that are letting their hair down and having good fun at a party. Let's say for argument's sake that one adult is overseeing them to make sure they all behave and this particular adult hasn't got much imagination when they call children affectionate names. the first five or six kids who she warns about their behaviour are all white. She addresses each one with "Pack it in you little monkey". All the rest of the kids hear this because she says it out loud to try and make them behave. The next child who misbehaves is a black lad, she announces "Pack it in you little....monster", having struggled for a brief moment when she realises she shouldn't really say "monkey". All the children are aware she's treated this particular lad different by calling him a different name to all the rest.

If in the imaginary case above, all the children have no idea about racism, are they going to suddenly question why the black lad was treated differently?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

Can I put it another way?, and if I'm correct in my guessing I hope I go a bit of a way to explain why some people don't see a problem with the advert or, indeed, calling all children monkeys. 

What about a group of children that are letting their hair down and having good fun at a party. Let's say for argument's sake that one adult is overseeing them to make sure they all behave and this particular adult hasn't got much imagination when they call children affectionate names. the first five or six kids who she warns about their behaviour are all white. She addresses each one with "Pack it in you little monkey". All the rest of the kids hear this because she says it out loud to try and make them behave. The next child who misbehaves is a black lad, she announces "Pack it in you little....monster", having struggled for a brief moment when she realises she shouldn't really say "monkey". All the children are aware she's treated this particular lad different by calling him a different name to all the rest.

If in the imaginary case above, all the children have no idea about racism, are they going to suddenly question why the black lad was treated differently?

 

 

Come on OF this isnt a PC starter course! :biggrin:

I assume you arent expecting a genuine response.

If you were trying to use examples surely come up with a jungle themed party with monkey hats etc!

 

Edited by Dave T

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24 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

My mate married a rather sectarian Protestant lady.  I am Catholic, but we got on well, they even travelled to the USA for my wedding.  For this wedding, one gift was a Stelton bottle opener:

 

She started playing it like a flute and then I cam ein and saw her.  Her face froze as she realized the context.

I laughed, she said sorry, I told her it was fine and we both laughed about it.

I could see it was a mistake and did not claim to be persucuted.  But, she apologised, because of how it looked.  This is similar and I think most people see it the same.

 

 

I think context is everything. Many wouldnt even know what that refers to even after reading it and it is an easily explained situation and can be laughed off.

The H&M instance is harder to explain - in fact they havent even tried to. We are all giving them the benefit of the doubt, but tbh I would expect them to be speaking to the people involved to get to how this came about - whether it is language barrier, ignorance, intentional controversy, or actual racism (plenty people still are).

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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

There was no monkey message on the white boy's jumper, but the exact same point stands, it is not the jumpers that were the issue - it was the images. They have been removed, job done.

You're right.  On the white boy's top was 'jungle survival expert' and some compared the two, calling them both racist as a result, so H&M took both images down.  

I didn't say the sweatshirts were the issue.  We were discussing the H&M advert.  I have no idea whether the sweatshirts are still being sold at H&M or not.

 

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

You're right.  On the white boy's top was 'jungle survival expert' and some compared the two, calling them both racist as a result, so H&M took both images down.  

I didn't say the sweatshirts were the issue.  We were discussing the H&M advert.  I have no idea whether the sweatshirts are still being sold at H&M or not.

 

I said they are not. That is what my post is talking about.

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2 hours ago, Bob8 said:

My mate married a rather sectarian Protestant lady.  I am Catholic, but we got on well, they even travelled to the USA for my wedding.  For this wedding, one gift was a Stelton bottle opener:

 

She started playing it like a flute and then I cam ein and saw her.  Her face froze as she realized the context.

I laughed, she said sorry, I told her it was fine and we both laughed about it.

I could see it was a mistake and did not claim to be persucuted.  But, she apologised, because of how it looked.  This is similar and I think most people see it the same.

 

Billedresultat for Stelton bottle opener

With the greatest of respect, and I hope I don' cause any offence...

I have no idea what you'e going on about!

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2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

With the greatest of respect, and I hope I don't cause any offence...

I have no idea what you'e going on about!

For some reason I can't seem to see the post on my computer! Here it is.

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3 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

For some reason I can't seem to see the post on my computer! Here it is.

Its that huge flute he has pasted on there distorting the forum. 

My understanding is it was the Protestant flute band thing, but I only really got that from living in Scotland for the last 7 years.

Edited by Dave T

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28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Its that huge flute he has pasted on there distorting the forum. 

My understanding is it was the Protestant flute band thing, but I only really got that from living in Scotland for the last 7 years.

Of course lol. You wouldn't think I'd lived in Northern Ireland for a year! I was thinking it was meant to be some sacred Catholic object I'd never heard of.

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I remember Paul Gascoigne sharing an experience after he scored for Rangers in an Old Firm Derby some years ago.

He celebrated by doing an impression of playing a flute in front of the Celtic hordes at Hampden Park.

He then said that he was approached some days later by a bloke who asked him about his goal celebration.

Gazza said "Did you enjoy it?", the bloke said "Not really, and if I ever see you do it again I'll slit your f***ing throat".

 

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I think most of the disagreement around this issue stems from the fact that many people (myself included) have never made the connection between calling a child a monkey and the racial slur of monkey. 

The talk above reminded me of an incident from my time in Northern Ireland where cultural differences around the use of a term resulted in somebody taking offence on my behalf even though I was unaware that the term was remotely offensive.

I was sat listening to the radio (a station based in the republic) with my father-in-law when they started talking about Britain. Next I know my father in law is shaking his head and runs off to his laptop to write a complaint to the station. In it he explained how he was mortified to be sat with his son-in-law and hear them use the term 'Brits.' Turns out this was used in a derogatory way during the troubles.

The new comedy on C4 Derry Girls is set down the road from where I lived. It was interesting to hear them say 'Brits' in this way.

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10 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

In it he explained how he was mortified to be sat with his son-in-law and hear them use the term 'Brits.' Turns out this was used in a derogatory way during the troubles.

It was indeed. Although to do it properly it sounds more like 'brats'.

I now feel old that there are people who don't know that.

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11 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I think most of the disagreement around this issue stems from the fact that many people (myself included) have never made the connection between calling a child a monkey and the racial slur of monkey. 

The talk above reminded me of an incident from my time in Northern Ireland where cultural differences around the use of a term resulted in somebody taking offence on my behalf even though I was unaware that the term was remotely offensive.

I was sat listening to the radio (a station based in the republic) with my father-in-law when they started talking about Britain. Next I know my father in law is shaking his head and runs off to his laptop to write a complaint to the station. In it he explained how he was mortified to be sat with his son-in-law and hear them use the term 'Brits.' Turns out this was used in a derogatory way during the troubles.

The new comedy on C4 Derry Girls is set down the road from where I lived. It was interesting to hear them say 'Brits' in this way.

I recall a TV programme getting lots of complaints from Northern Ireland as the credits seemed to show lots of Catholics had made the programme.  That makes no sense to most people in Britian, but anyone called Gerald, James, or Michael had to be Catholic

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15 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I think most of the disagreement around this issue stems from the fact that many people (myself included) have never made the connection between calling a black child a monkey and the racial slur of monkey. 

I think the word 'black' being missed out here is important.

I think this is a mainly excellent article on it, and mirrors much of my view (some points I had highlighted here bfore I read this).

http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/10/if-you-cant-see-racism-in-hms-coolest-monkey-hoodie-youre-probably-sitting-in-a-position-of-privilege-7217369/

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22 hours ago, Saintslass said:

It is an interesting view (sort of). Basically she doesn't believe it is racist - and I would really hope that was the case as she was there when her son wore it, and got paid for it - so it really wouldn't reflect well on her if she now said it was racist.

Where her comments are misguided are telling others to 'get over it' and 'Stop crying wolf' - I think they are dangerous words when discussing racism. Her not finding it offensive or inappropriate is her prerogative, but to attack others is a bit silly.

It's not unlike women wearing Burqas telling those who want them banned to 'get over it' or women pornstars telling outraged women there is offence and they should 'stop crying wolf'.

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It is an interesting view (sort of). Basically she doesn't believe it is racist - and I would really hope that was the case as she was there when her son wore it, and got paid for it - so it really wouldn't reflect well on her if she now said it was racist.

Where her comments are misguided are telling others to 'get over it' and 'Stop crying wolf' - I think they are dangerous words when discussing racism. Her not finding it offensive or inappropriate is her prerogative, but to attack others is a bit silly.

It's not unlike women wearing Burqas telling those who want them banned to 'get over it' or women pornstars telling outraged women there is offence and they should 'stop crying wolf'.

Indeed. 

I think most people do not think it was intentional, but is was very insensitive and an apology is reasonable.

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It is ironic and disappointing that the mother has received racist threats from people who disagree with her. 

 

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

It is ironic and disappointing that the mother has received racist threats from people who disagree with her. 

 

Is it true that she is getting racist attacks from people who are calling this racism?

A couple of threads I have seen have had racist abuse, but just normal twitter nobs.

EDIT: she also really isn't coming across that well tbh. Putting a photo of a white child wearing a Curious George t-shirt is just bizarre. She is almost inviting criticism (not abuse I should add!).

Edited by Dave T

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On ‎12‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 3:34 PM, Dave T said:

Is it true that she is getting racist attacks from people who are calling this racism?

A couple of threads I have seen have had racist abuse, but just normal twitter nobs.

EDIT: she also really isn't coming across that well tbh. Putting a photo of a white child wearing a Curious George t-shirt is just bizarre. She is almost inviting criticism (not abuse I should add!).

She is moving house for safety reasons.

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12 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Plenty of idiots around. Also the attacking of the stores is completely ott.

I take issue with Terry Mango's version of events where she claimed she respects people's views when she outwardly attacked their views.

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