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ckn

Army adverts

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4 minutes ago, ckn said:

I remember my first day in Dortmund, we were told bluntly that BAOR was a meat-shield and speed-bump to slow down the Soviet Shock Armies until the US could ship in its divisions from the US, the second sentence was that there was an entire Soviet artillery division facing us who had a primary role of counter-battery and could be relied on to use at least 100-120 artillery counter-battery weapons per kilometre in the initial assault.  That was nice then.

My boss then said that the forward observer job that I'd been newly minted into was probably the safest job in the BAOR artillery because you either had the infantry to protect you when attached to them, or you were out on your own where two to four man teams had a safety of its own in small numbers.  I was happy with my meat shield infantry colleagues then, I just wouldn't trust them to make a competent brew without hurting themselves. :D

Oi. I object to that. I was a signaller, we could make tea any where, any time.

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listening to the radio this morning some army big wig (or ex army big wig) was condeming them saying people that joined the army wanted combat and thats why they joined the army and thats what they were looking for so to not show the combat side in full was meaning those people wouldnt join..

now have to say I am neither ex military or in marketing but it got me thinking in what he was saying that these adverts could actually do the job the army needs really well... Surely those crying out for combat know where to look.. sort of in the description of armed forces really and dont think anyone is going around thinking "if only i could get into a war, i just dont know where to go and how to do it".. advert comes on for the armed forces "oh well if they had only said sooner!"

surely the point is trying to get people who wouldnt have thought of it.. there are plenty of people who want to be in the forces but just dont really think it is the place for them due to the preconceived ideas this is trying to break.. not all jobs are beating people with a spade either!

Edited by RP London
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8 hours ago, ckn said:

I'm listening to LBC now and they're covering the new army adverts.  Here's come context on it from the Guardian.

I personally think these adverts are astounding and long overdue.  Far better than the "be the best" dross that concentrated on the Americanised version of unthinking specialists.

Here's the tone of the adverts that were on when I joined up in 1989:

 

The points raised in the new adverts are genuine ones that stop people joining up.  Study after study show that gay people, non-Christian people, women, "average" fitness people, slightly overweight people and so on are put off the army with the macho culture of white, straight, chisel-jawed men dominating.  So, why not address them openly?

Also, the army openly saying that talking about problems is fine is one of most helpful points in preventing and combatting PTSD I've ever seen from the army command in years.

IDS's comments as reported in the Guardian article and others just show why he never got past Lieutenant.  That said, IDS... need more be said?

I saw them being discussed on the TV news tonight.  Must say the first thing I thought was 'how soppy'.  I thought they were more like ads for the cub scouts than the army (bar the silhouettes of guns of course).

 

Edited by Saintslass

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13 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

Couldn't they combine this advert with the last one? 

 

JOIN THE ARMY AND BECOME THE BEST GAY MUSLIM YOU CAN BE! 

that should radicalise a few too... they're making our muslims gay!!! 

therefore there is always a need for the army to fight the radicalised

therefore army cuts are reversed and people keep their jobs in the armed forces.. 

that would be THE perfect marketing campaign

well done Rhino!

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I don't think 'BE THE BEST' had to be dropped or indeed should have been. Purely for the reason that dropping it implies that it isn't true any more. Now while this may be the case, I don't see why 'be the best' isn't in fact a brilliant way to appeal to both sides of this issue. For the more 'Army should be tough' people, 'be the best' is clearly a statement of intent of Britain's military place in the world. For the more 'liberal' campaigns such as those now, 'Be the Best' can be an inclusive concept that no matter what societal label(s) you have, the Army can accept you and help you 'be the best' version of yourself. 

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39 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't think 'BE THE BEST' had to be dropped or indeed should have been. Purely for the reason that dropping it implies that it isn't true any more. Now while this may be the case, I don't see why 'be the best' isn't in fact a brilliant way to appeal to both sides of this issue. For the more 'Army should be tough' people, 'be the best' is clearly a statement of intent of Britain's military place in the world. For the more 'liberal' campaigns such as those now, 'Be the Best' can be an inclusive concept that no matter what societal label(s) you have, the Army can accept you and help you 'be the best' version of yourself. 

I can see your point but the whole "be the best" campaign since it started was a plagiarisation of an American campaign that worked quite well.  Unfortunately, Britain isn't America when it comes to attitudes and it backfired in terms of recruitment.  The British army isn't the American army and has widely differing attitudes on many things, from "bootcamp" to routine service, the British army is one hell of a lot less shouty and individually anal.

The concepts of "team" are far more important than individualism in the British army.  It's irrelevant if YOU are the best if you're in a team who are dysfunctional.  Promoting an army that does have a softer side reflects the reality of the British army.

I believe that "Frank" video I posted in my original post was one of the most successful campaigns in the army's entire voluntary recruitment history.  In comparison, the "be the best" videos were touting specialist education and skills to a largely working class group of young people and school leavers who often had a poor experience of "education" and didn't know what they wanted to do beyond "oh ****, MORE education?"

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3 hours ago, ckn said:

I had to unhide your posts as you’d hit report on something. This post and the one that led to your report are what I would call trolling. I’m doing nothing with them and leaving them to John D to review. 

Erm, thanks! :roulette:

I could only read the first two paragraphs on the link as its behind a paywall but it looks like Charles Moore writing exactly what you'd imagine he'd write about this topic, pandering to all the assumed prejudices of the readership of the Telegraph.

I'm not paying a pound to find out.

It's sort of relevant to the thread subject though, so I don't think its justified to remove it now its here, but I don't think it adds much to the debate posting links to articles that most people won't be able to read in full even if they wanted to.

I think if anyone takes this as trolling, the best response as with any trolling is to ignore it.

Only Saintslass can tell us what her true intentions were in adding this particular contribution.

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I might offer a unique view on this.

25 years ago, while school friends where aiming for Oxford or becoming a Doctor. I wanted to join the military.

I wanted to be a pilot and when the RAF only offered me a navigator place. I applied to the Navy and was accepted as a pilot ( before I took my A levels, so grades where not important) and (as I said at the Admiralty Selection Board) it had a nicer unidorm!

Being from N Ireland joining the military in the 90's could have been an issue. 

Having realised in my teens that I was not interested much in girls, more boys, I went out of my way to be a straight lad who had a few gay teenage experiences.

Anyway, I joined fought, acted straight, my best friend died in combat.

After I left the RN, I was able to become me. More recently people like me could be open about who they are while serving.

To join the Navy, Army or the RAF you need a realisation that you are paid to kill people.  Sexuality or gender does not effect that ability.

Perception is that it does!

Hopefully the new adverts change that and encourage more Alan Turnings to join rather than hide, ignore and kill themselves.

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4 hours ago, kiyan said:

I might offer a unique view on this.

25 years ago, while school friends where aiming for Oxford or becoming a Doctor. I wanted to join the military.

I wanted to be a pilot and when the RAF only offered me a navigator place. I applied to the Navy and was accepted as a pilot ( before I took my A levels, so grades where not important) and (as I said at the Admiralty Selection Board) it had a nicer unidorm!

Being from N Ireland joining the military in the 90's could have been an issue. 

Having realised in my teens that I was not interested much in girls, more boys, I went out of my way to be a straight lad who had a few gay teenage experiences.

Anyway, I joined fought, acted straight, my best friend died in combat.

After I left the RN, I was able to become me. More recently people like me could be open about who they are while serving.

To join the Navy, Army or the RAF you need a realisation that you are paid to kill people.  Sexuality or gender does not effect that ability.

Perception is that it does!

Hopefully the new adverts change that and encourage more Alan Turnings to join rather than hide, ignore and kill themselves.

It seems trite to just “like” a post like this, I wish there were some better way of registering my admiration and respect for what you have written.

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7 hours ago, John Drake said:

Only Saintslass can tell us what her true intentions were in adding this particular contribution.

Simply that it articulated my own stance on the matter well, better than I could articulate it.  I take your point about the paywall: I have the same problem when people link to articles in The Times.  I will happily quote the article if someone wants to know what it says but somehow I doubt anyone will want to know what it says!

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

Simply that it articulated my own stance on the matter well, better than I could articulate it.

I am the Chief Instructor at an Army Basic Training Establishment responsible for 1/4 of all Army recruits per year, I don’t care if recruits cry, worship Allah/Aliens or like someone of the same sex; what I do care about is someone’s ability to handle a weapon, apply functional skills, show signs of leadership potential and operate within a team construct. Those who can’t don’t get through the training pipeline. Yep,  training is (rightly) different to the 1970s but anyone who suggests to me that my generation and the current generation of recruits don’t have the minerals, aggression or fighting spirit of previous generations don’t know what they are talking about. The Army in my 15yrs has always been a broad church of ethnicities, genders, sexual preferences etc and has been through the most intense combat experiences since the Second World War. The likes of Moore, Farage and IDS are outdated middle-aged men wearing rose-tinted glasses that don’t see reality.

Edited by GeordieSaint
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On 1/10/2018 at 11:31 AM, ckn said:

I'm listening to LBC now and they're covering the new army adverts.  Here's come context on it from the Guardian.

I personally think these adverts are astounding and long overdue.  Far better than the "be the best" dross that concentrated on the Americanised version of unthinking specialists.

Here's the tone of the adverts that were on when I joined up in 1989:

 

The points raised in the new adverts are genuine ones that stop people joining up.  Study after study show that gay people, non-Christian people, women, "average" fitness people, slightly overweight people and so on are put off the army with the macho culture of white, straight, chisel-jawed men dominating.  So, why not address them openly?

Also, the army openly saying that talking about problems is fine is one of most helpful points in preventing and combatting PTSD I've ever seen from the army command in years.

IDS's comments as reported in the Guardian article and others just show why he never got past Lieutenant.  That said, IDS... need more be said?

So presumably the advert that you saw in 1989 persuaded you to join up.

I assume therefore that it did its job.

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19 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

So presumably the advert that you saw in 1989 persuaded you to join up.

I assume therefore that it did its job.

It wasn’t a primary thing for me. When I left school, I was in Scotland at the time in a very stereotypical mining village. The options for school leavers were: go to university/college, go to Rosyth dockyard for an apprenticeship, join the military, leave the area or hope for another bit of luck for a job in the nothing area. The pits were closed. Rosyth was ramping down its  apprenticeship scheme and in retrospect I’m glad I didn’t go that way as all school friends who went there were jobless a few years later. I didn’t want to go to university so that left the military. 

Some very clever folk in selection noted that authority and I tended to not get on as I challenged what I saw as wrong regardless of who was wrong. They tracked me into one of the few jobs for a non-officer where that attitude worked well. 

The Army is unique in its ability to find a place for almost anyone who can get through training.

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51 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I am the Chief Instructor at an Army Basic Training Establishment responsible for 1/4 of all Army recruits per year, I don’t care if recruits cry, worship Allah/Aliens or like someone of the same sex; what I do care about is someone’s ability to handle a weapon, apply functional skills, show signs of leadership potential and operate within a team construct. Those who can’t don’t get through the training pipeline. Yep,  training is (rightly) different to the 1970s but anyone who suggests to me that my generation and the current generation of recruits don’t have the minerals, aggression or fighting spirit of previous generations don’t know what they are talking about. The Army in my 15yrs has always been a broad church of ethnicities, genders, sexual preferences etc and has been through the most intense combat experiences since the Second World War. The likes of Moore, Farage and IDS are outdated middle-aged men wearing rose-tinted glasses that don’t see reality.

And you haven’t put rugby league as the only team sport available to recruits?  What sort of infiltration agent are you in the establishment?! Hope you’ve not gone native! ;) 

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I won't get the story quite right but my sister joined the forces at 16 entirely because they did focused outreach on recruiting women. I'm sure at the time there were plenty of Charles Moores who would have been against such a thing and I know she had to put up with a lot of nonsense both from inside and outside the forces, especially in the early years.

Seven years in the RAF (she bought herself out for very good reasons not worth repeating here) and then 19 as an officer in the army later ...  so, maybe there's something in this drawing out the best from as many different backgrounds as possible ...

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5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I won't get the story quite right but my sister joined the forces at 16 entirely because they did focused outreach on recruiting women. I'm sure at the time there were plenty of Charles Moores who would have been against such a thing and I know she had to put up with a lot of nonsense both from inside and outside the forces, especially in the early years.

Not sure you're correct about Moore.

His great heroine was Margaret Thatcher, the subject of his biography, who no doubt had at least as much to put up with from males who thought politics and warfare wasn't for women.

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6 hours ago, ckn said:

And you haven’t put rugby league as the only team sport available to recruits?  What sort of infiltration agent are you in the establishment?! Hope you’ve not gone native! ;) 

Meh! 😂

It is used to be a big establishment for RL; formal links with Penrith Panthers in Oz with tours regularly taking place. All that fell by the wayside with budget cuts and little rugby of either code taking place now.

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7 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

I am the Chief Instructor at an Army Basic Training Establishment responsible for 1/4 of all Army recruits per year, I don’t care if recruits cry, worship Allah/Aliens or like someone of the same sex; what I do care about is someone’s ability to handle a weapon, apply functional skills, show signs of leadership potential and operate within a team construct. Those who can’t don’t get through the training pipeline. Yep,  training is (rightly) different to the 1970s but anyone who suggests to me that my generation and the current generation of recruits don’t have the minerals, aggression or fighting spirit of previous generations don’t know what they are talking about. The Army in my 15yrs has always been a broad church of ethnicities, genders, sexual preferences etc and has been through the most intense combat experiences since the Second World War. The likes of Moore, Farage and IDS are outdated middle-aged men wearing rose-tinted glasses that don’t see reality.

I appreciate what you say.

However, there is just one follow up point I would like to make.  You are steeped in the forces culture and practices.

I am not.

Which of us are the adverts supposed to be speaking to?

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

I appreciate what you say.

However, there is just one follow up point I would like to make.  You are steeped in the forces culture and practices.

I am not.

Which of us are the adverts supposed to be speaking to?

Not you - 15-26yr olds predominately and they are very different to you and those individuals commentating in the press. 

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The Army (all the forces actually) are suffering from a massive shortfall in recruitment numbers.  This suggests that 'Be the Best' might not be working anymore.  Whats wrong with trying something different?

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A view -

https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/praying-for-recruits-brilliant-new.html

Quote

 

The new British Army recruiting campaign was leaked to the press today, originally having been scheduled to launch later in the week. Reaction to it has varied, from significant support from some, to angry and irate media reactions from former Retired Colonels who were apparently the Supreme Grand Allied Intergalactic Commander in Afghanistan (or some similar title) and other assorted types who loathe it as it makes the Army look 'weak'.  
 
The challenge for the British Army today is that it is understrength, it has a difficult recruiting message to convey and it needs to show how it can appeal to a cross section of society who have been brought up in a totally different environment to their forbears.  The Army in particular has a struggle to identify the sort of person who would join and what sort of person it is actually looking for, and how it can overcome many of the myths that have built up about it as an organisation. 

 

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