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Dave T

WCC Scheduling

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22 minutes ago, Allora said:

I do not believe those figures Dave.

Is 8am or 9am on a Saturday in England really going to pull in massive figures for a Club game in a Country that is very Tribal about the teams they follow?

I do not think so.

What were the figures again for the National team V Tonga or Samoa that was streamed by subscription again? 10-12K?

160k was for the 8.30am game in 2014.

I *think* the 300k was for a Leeds v Manly game?

For the World Cup Final we got over a million (1.7m iirc) with a peak of 2.5m in that slot on the Saturday.

The WCC has always returned healthy figures in the UK.

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13 hours ago, Dave T said:

Nobody here organises the tournament, so we cant provide any evidence - it has been pointed out that the majority of these events have been scheduled for a Saturday and Sunday morning in Oz, but there has been some rubbish scheduling - we have even extended the discussion to be critical of the last 4N organised here which had the Aussies playing on a Monday morning Oz time.

There is even a cobversation between me and Sports Prophet on the previous page discussing the issues on both sides of the world. And in my proposed solution it addresses when the games in England should be scheduled that is better for Aussie fans.

What more do you want?

So in other words you didn't give two ####### about the poor scheduling until it effected you, now that it's advantageous to back up your current outrage you're pretending that it was a big issue for you in the past when it didn't effect you. . .

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13 hours ago, Dave T said:

Bingo.

And it got a great result, beating the Ashes session that clashed and matching the Oz v Eng opener on a Friday evening with no Ashes clash.

It was staged on a Saturday to cater for the international audience, because playing it on a Friday night would be stupid.

Not as good of a result as it would have got on a Friday.

And what does the WCC need right now if it's going to be resurrected, the best result possible in Australia, what broadcast times consistently provide the best results in Australia, 8pm Friday or 8pm Wednesday.

 

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10 hours ago, Dave T said:

What it has been in the past is totally irrelevant (and it has been highlighted that the majority have been suitable times for the Aussie market).

To alienate one of the two markets is bizarre.

Three years ago the RFL put oit a statement boasting that the WCC got 300k viewers (plus hundreds of k more on highlights) and 16.6m reach on twitter. This year it will be pretty much killed in the UK. 

It may get good figures in Oz, what then? Leave it dead in the UK or move it back to the UK on a Sunday next year and kill it in Oz?

It neednt be one or the other. Its not rocket science.

The RFL has spent the last 20 years doing the same thing to the Australian market!

They've done it for so long and so intensely that it's basically killed the WCC and those facts matter, cause those facts are the reason that for sometime at least that the WCC needs to be pushed into the spotlight in Australia, in an attempt to save the concept (for lack of a better word) in the eyes of Australian public, cause if we don't do that there isn't going to be a WCC going forward and that would be a bad thing cause it has heaps of potential as a product.

Also I don't accept that the WCC/WCS has been held at suitable times for the Australian market, for it to be held at a suitable time in the Australian market it would have been held at the end of the season after the grand finals, it also would have been held in Australia every second year... That hasn't happened and I highly doubt that it's largely "Australia's" fault that that hasn't happened way.

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25 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

So in other words you didn't give two ####### about the poor scheduling until it effected you, now that it's advantageous to back up your current outrage you're pretending that it was a big issue for you in the past when it didn't effect you. . .

Well thats one interpretation.

If i complain about poor service in a restaurant, they dont dismiss it because i never complained about the poor service table 4 received earlier.

Whether anybody complained about any other years is literally irrelevant. It is a complete red herring.

It is a bizarre theory to have that you cant be unhappy with something unless you have complained about every other previous incident of it. Really, really bizarre.

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6 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

The RFL has spent the last 20 years doing the same thing to the Australian market!

They've done it for so long and so intensely that it's basically killed the WCC and those facts matter, cause those facts are the reason that for sometime at least that the WCC needs to be pushed into the spotlight in Australia, in an attempt to save the concept (for lack of a better word) in the eyes of Australian public, cause if we don't do that there isn't going to be a WCC going forward and that would be a bad thing cause it has heaps of potential as a product.

Also I don't accept that the WCC/WCS has been held at suitable times for the Australian market, for it to be held at a suitable time in the Australian market it would have been held at the end of the season after the grand finals, it also would have been held in Australia every second year... That hasn't happened and I highly doubt that it's largely "Australia's" fault that that hasn't happened way.

Your last paragraph really is a cracker.

The RFL/SLE have championed this game for years and every year we have had questions about will it be staged in Oz, or will the Aussies even bother.

The UK game have consistently stated that they will travel to Oz to play. The UK games have tried to expand this comp, many Oz clubs couldnt be bothered so the series was scrapped.

There is little doubt where the challenges have been for this game/series.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Well thats one interpretation.

If i complain about poor service in a restaurant, they dont dismiss it because i never complained about the poor service table 4 received earlier.

Whether anybody complained about any other years is literally irrelevant. It is a complete red herring.

It is a bizarre theory to have that you cant be unhappy with something unless you have complained about every other previous incident of it. Really, really bizarre.

There's a great poem that you should read, it's called First they came ... by Martin Niemöller.

It pretty much sums up my opinion of your defense. 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Your last paragraph really is a cracker.

The RFL/SLE have championed this game for years and every year we have had questions about will it be staged in Oz, or will the Aussies even bother.

The UK game have consistently stated that they will travel to Oz to play. The UK games have tried to expand this comp, many Oz clubs couldnt be bothered so the series was scrapped.

There is little doubt where the challenges have been for this game/series.

So strange that they wanted games to be played in Australia and have wanted what is best for both countries, and yet the WCC has consistently only been run for and by the RFL (and SL clubs) for their advantage and with their best interests at the forefront for the last 20 years. . .

It's called public relations mate, every business does it.

Also the idea that any of the clubs should be organising it at all is one of the reasons that it has been such a massive failure. 

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7 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

There's a great poem that you should read, it's called First they came ... by Martin Niemöller.

It pretty much sums up my opinion of your defense. 

As has been pointed out, the vast majority of these games have been played on a Friday or Saturday UK time meaning a decent time for the Aussie market (Saturday or Sunday AM).

We have been told year after year that the Aussie market is not interested in the event, not interested in staging it, and not particularly interested in turning up to play.

On the three or four occasions that it has been played on a Monday AM Oz time, there has been no furore fron the Aussie fans on here - because it isnt NRL and in the main that is all you care about - so there have been no major complaints. Had there been complaints and the UK fans come out with selfish guff like 'its our event', 'its for UK fans', or 'its too hard because we live on a globe' or 'tough - deal with it' then criticism would be worthy. But in the main UK fans wouldnt respond like that as we arent so defensive about criticism and care about this event and the wider game. UK fans arent so arrogant that we think whatever thr UK administrator does is great.

As an example, see the criticism about the last 4N in particular (and some RLWC13) where the RFL were fiercely criticised for the staging of the event and the treatment of the Aussie and Kiwi teams. There was criticism of the pathetic schedule that would see any touring fans go to Hull, Workington, London, Hudds and Liverpool, we were critical of the Sunday scheduling - a departure from the usual Saturday.

Your poem is a weird choice of attack, as we are saying that the scheduling should benefit both markets, you are saying 'this is ours, we'll organise it for us and stuff you'. Nobody turned the other cheek to the poor Aussie plight - you lot dont care about it! As has been shown here, you think staging games during working hours is perfectly acceptable.

Edited by Dave T

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7 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

So strange that they wanted games to be played in Australia and have wanted what is best for both countries, and yet the WCC has consistently only been run for and by the RFL (and SL clubs) for their advantage and with their best interests at the forefront for the last 20 years. . .

It's called public relations mate, every business does it.

Also the idea that any of the clubs should be organising it at all is one of the reasons that it has been such a massive failure. 

Im not sure why you see the RFL persisting with organising tbis tournament as a bad thing. We have seen how the Aussie admin have little desire for anything outside NRL. See 9s, all stars, city v country, Anzac, internationals etc.

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On 12/01/2018 at 12:45 PM, JoneslessBishop said:

I think we all agree Dave, but given Channel Nine got this after the other games were est up, they didn’t want to compete with the games on Fox, and given Melbourne have bent everyone over a barrel on this they felt they could just go ahead and schedule when they think they’ll get the best crowd.

Wood has gone, the WCC is a club comp so makes sense the new SL board will organize going forward. Lenagan and Pearson have shown an appetite for SL nRL games and Heitherington has piled out the stops to make sure the game happens this year. In the new SL board clubs will be accountable to each other, and Pearson has emphasized the need to push our products more confidently. Let’s hop that means we have far better planning and engagement going forward. 

It depends how you look at it. It could be argued Wigan and Hull organising games has killed the WCS stone dead. Now I was never a massive fan of the series I think the WCC is the only one that matters but it does highlight that if you put club chairmen in charge they will do what’s best for their club. 

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31 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

It depends how you look at it. It could be argued Wigan and Hull organising games has killed the WCS stone dead. Now I was never a massive fan of the series I think the WCC is the only one that matters but it does highlight that if you put club chairmen in charge they will do what’s best for their club. 

Yep. I agree with this. The Aussies have shown they are happy to play this year, 3 games are being staged that weekend, based on previous criteria we should have had Leeds, Cas and Hull playing. The NRL clubs have been a bit of a mishmash so this year could have been those three for them. 

It has clearly undermined RFL efforts to get the three game series back on. If it is a one off and next year more joined up then maybe worthwhile but I have no confidence in that.

At a time when the RFL was battling to get three NRL clubs to play in a series, two SL clubs arranging games independently was clearly a conflict of interests.

The RFL/SLE should never have sanctioned non wcs games in-season.

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13 hours ago, Dave T said:

As has been pointed out, the vast majority of these games have been played on a Friday or Saturday UK time meaning a decent time for the Aussie market (Saturday or Sunday AM).

And of the two games that have been played in Australia one was played at a decent time for the UK market, so what!

The fact that it has been played at decent times in the past is no excuse for the other times when it hasn't been at a good times.

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

We have been told year after year that the Aussie market is not interested in the event, not interested in staging it, and not particularly interested in turning up to play.

That's all true, and I agree that the RFL has completely failed to prove to the NRL clubs that their baby, their product, the WCC is a viable and profitable product for the NRL clubs as well as the SL clubs.

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

On the three or four occasions that it has been played on a Monday AM Oz time, there has been no furore fron the Aussie fans on here - because it isnt NRL and in the main that is all you care about - so there have been no major complaints.

Firstly I'm not most Australians, secondly I haven't been on here long enough for my complaints to be heard on this forum before now, thirdly if you want to hear Australian critisims of the WCC looking on an Australian website instead of an English one might be a good starting point...

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

Had there been complaints and the UK fans come out with selfish guff like 'its our event', 'its for UK fans', or 'its too hard because we live on a globe' or 'tough - deal with it' then criticism would be worthy. But in the main UK fans wouldnt respond like that as we arent so defensive about criticism and care about this event and the wider game. UK fans arent so arrogant that we think whatever thr UK administrator does is great.

You care so much about the wider game, the event, etc, etc, that you've spent the last 20 years running the WCC into the ground by failing to support it on both sides of the globe...

And don't get me started on the strange entitlement that the RFL and English RL fans seem to have towards the NRL and Australian RL, and this weird idea that any crack pot idea that you lot come up with should be financially supported by the NRL and NRL clubs even if there's nothing in the event for the NRL and NRL clubs (Denver for example).  

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

As an example, see the criticism about the last 4N in particular (and some RLWC13) where the RFL were fiercely criticised for the staging of the event and the treatment of the Aussie and Kiwi teams. There was criticism of the pathetic schedule that would see any touring fans go to Hull, Workington, London, Hudds and Liverpool, we were critical of the Sunday scheduling - a departure from the usual Saturday.

We're not talking about the 4N or RLWC they're both redundant, and besides I don't really have a problem with most of the scheduling of those events, trying to fit so many games all catering to different regions into a handful of time slots over a weekend and still making the tournament attractive to the majority of local populous, local broadcaster, and local sponsors would be a borderline impossible task, especially over an extended period like during a WC. Remember when i was talking about give and take and how it's necessary to make events like this successful...

By the way, any talk of a travel schedule and travel time that sees a team and it's fans traveling all over England as either arduous or unreasonable is simply ridiculous to me, you guys really don't seem to realise just how small England is.

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

Your poem is a weird choice of attack, as we are saying that the scheduling should benefit both markets

You are saying that now that it's effecting you, you weren't saying that for the last 20 years...

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

you are saying 'this is ours, we'll organise it for us and stuff you'.

No we're not, we're saying that the RFL has so bungled the WCC that if you want it to be a viable product again you need to resurrect it in Aus, and the only way you are going to do that with any efficacy is if you present it as a major event in Australia for at least a little while, and the best way to present it as a major event is to play it in one of the premier time slots in Aus for a little while, and it doesn't get more premier than Wednesday or Friday night.  

If you want the WCC to continue you're going to have to accept things like this for a little while, remember that give and take I was talking about earlier, otherwise it's destine for the trash heap cause it's literally a dead brand in Australia, even most RL fans down here don't watch it and probably couldn't tell you when its on or who the English team in it is. You really don't seem to understand the just how bad things have got for the WCC down here. 

And again you didn't seem to have a problem when it was the RFL and SL clubs saying 'this is ours, we'll organise it for us and stuff you', hence the poem, cause from where I'm standing you're literally in the position of- First they came for the Aussies, and I did not speak out because I was not an Australian. Then they came for me and there was nobody left to speak for me. 

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

Nobody turned the other cheek to the poor Aussie plight - you lot dont care about it! As has been shown here, you think staging games during working hours is perfectly acceptable.

Firstly I'm yet to see any outrage for you lot, let alone the pommy media, about the treatment of the WCC as it pertains to it's impact in Australia (apart from whinging about the NRL clubs refusal to support a product that they don't see any value in), there's plenty of Aussie media about Australians misgivings about how the WCC is run.

Secondly where did I say that I found it perfectly acceptable to stage games during working hours? I've only said that in this situation it's currently a necessary evil.

Besides every game that's played ever is played during working hours, I know people that are hardcore RL fans living here in Australia that basically haven't watched any game live in the last ten years cause of their work, there's nothing you can do about it really, were a 24 hour economy and all that. That's something that those people have to deal with.

 

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15 hours ago, Dave T said:

Im not sure why you see the RFL persisting with organising tbis tournament as a bad thing. We have seen how the Aussie admin have little desire for anything outside NRL. See 9s, all stars, city v country, Anzac, internationals etc.

It's not that they've persisted with it that is a bad thing, it's the way that they have persisted with it that has been bad, namely outright refusing to host games in Australia or even attempt to grow the WCC in Australia.

And I simply don't understand your anger at the "Aussie admin" for not being interested in the WCC, they don't think it's a viable product so they don't want anything to do with it, so what, you expect them to host it and throw resources at it anyway even though they don't want anything to do with it and think that it's a waste of time and money?! It's the RFL's product, not theirs, it's your job to sell it to them, not their job to just accept it despite thinking that it's a black hole, the RFL hasn't even tried to prove to them that it's a viable product in Australia as well as England but some how that's the NRL's fault in your mind. I simply don't get your line of thinking...

I also don't get your line about the Nines, All Stars, etc.

If the "Aussie admin" had little desire for anything outside of NRL then the Nines, All Stars, etc wouldn't exist at all.

If you are complaining about what you see as these events seemingly not being supported this year or supported the way that they used to be, well then the Nines and All Stars are taking a year off because of the cluttered scheduled (it's an RLPA rules and regulations thing), they'll be back next year (besides the All Stars is a deeply flawed product, that is arguably deeply racist and sets a dangerous precedent, that needs to be completely restructured or killed off anyway, but isn't being restructured or killed off because of wider politics in this country, and why you, as a person from outside of Australia, are worried about it all I don't know, but this is a conversation for another time), the sport and Australia as whole outgrew CVC just as it outgrew other events in the past (Amco cup (Australias' Challange cup), Roos v rest of the world, etc, etc) and it'll outgrow other events in the future, it's sad, but it is what it is, the ANZAC test is basically still a thing it's just been moved to the end of the season, and the Roos participate in internationals regularly.

So yeah I don't get your point on that one either, it seems ill informed if anything, I also note that you didn't mention SOO...

 

Edited by The Great Dane
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43 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Wow,is that a record for the most contradictions in a single post ?

I'll be honest, I haven't read it.

Thanks to TGD for bothering to reply, but tbh I am not getting bogged down with that length of post just to defend the Aussie administration when this isn't a UK v Aussie issue.

Interestingly, there was a thread like this around 7 or 8 weeks ago, started by Martyn Sadler criticising poor scheduling. It wasn't a controversial thread and people broadly agreed. This is simply the same point as we get another world event with poor scheduling.

There isn't anything controversial with the thread - it's quite a basic issue, but the level of defence and outrage is pretty funny.

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The WCC, The WCS or whatever it is has the feeling of my family Christmases.

My wife and daughter spend ages making plans, hopefully setting up schedules and stuff. I roll up at the last minute and say "what's going on? Nah, let's just do this. Let's visit the in-laws next year or something."

Sorted.

Edited by Scubby
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On 14/01/2018 at 9:21 AM, Dave T said:

Yep. I agree with this. The Aussies have shown they are happy to play this year, 3 games are being staged that weekend, based on previous criteria we should have had Leeds, Cas and Hull playing. The NRL clubs have been a bit of a mishmash so this year could have been those three for them. 

It has clearly undermined RFL efforts to get the three game series back on. If it is a one off and next year more joined up then maybe worthwhile but I have no confidence in that.

At a time when the RFL was battling to get three NRL clubs to play in a series, two SL clubs arranging games independently was clearly a conflict of interests.

The RFL/SLE should never have sanctioned non wcs games in-season.

I don’t disagree that Wigan and Hull undermined it. But I do think the new structure makes the SL clubs more accountable to each other. Hopefully that we mean we don’t see a repeat.

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1 hour ago, JoneslessBishop said:

I don’t disagree that Wigan and Hull undermined it. But I do think the new structure makes the SL clubs more accountable to each other. Hopefully that we mean we don’t see a repeat.

I dont think Wigan and Hull undermined it. It think we allowed What Wigan and  Hull are doing to undermine it with a lack of strategic planning. 

As soon as Wigan and Hull's mini Tour was agreed it should have been rolled up in to it, and the NRL and SL should have agreed that both finalists would play in Australia which would have have seen us go to a 4 match WCC. We could have even tried something like a mini magic weekend. We could have had them all at different stadia spread across 4 Australian cities. We could have snuck a mini 9s comp in there. 

There is a huge amount we can do with joined up thinking and by grasping the mettle. Rugby League never sees opportunities, only obstacles. 

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