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Bedford Roughyed

If a second EU referendum happened tomorrow...

If a second EU referendum happened tomorrow...  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. If a second EU referendum happened tomorrow, would you...

    • Vote the same way as last time?
      54
    • Switch your vote?
      1
    • Not vote?
      0
    • Didn't vote last time but would if given the chance?
      3


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1 minute ago, bowes said:

This already is starting to happen I think. France are far more influential than the U.K. in the EU despite a similar population. This is largely because we're not in the Euro or Schengen (joining either of which would be a disaster). The last UK leader with any real influence in Europe was Margaret Thatcher and that was when there were 9, 10 or 12 members (it increased during her leadership). 

All opt outs would be likely to be scrapped if we wanted to stay now and to me EFTA membership would be much better than EU membership without the opt outs. 

Also a second referendum would destroy our negotiations with the EU. It would take up far too much negotiation time and if the result was Leave we would probably end up having to leave with no deal due to time wasting  

I don’t get your second paragraph. It’s our decision to stay and our membership would remain unchanged. We would not be renegotiating anything to stay, we simply cancel our Article 50 notice. 

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20 minutes ago, ckn said:

I don’t get your second paragraph. It’s our decision to stay and our membership would remain unchanged. We would not be renegotiating anything to stay, we simply cancel our Article 50 notice. 

You can't unilaterally cancel Article 50, it has to be unanimously agreed by all members to stop it. France would want concessions to let us stay 

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24 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Why?

The Euro trashed a lot of Southern European economies and it's only a matter of time before Spain or Italy crash and are too big to bail out. Basically currency union without fiscal union is very dangerous. Underperforming economies naturally would have their currency fall on the exchange rates and then their exports would be more appealing. Italy has seen no growth in its economy since it joined the Euro because it's been permanently overvalued and therefore uncompetitive.

Joining Schengen would mean passportless travel from Brussels and Paris which are the two biggest terrorist hotspots in Europe. It would also mean we couldn't protect ourselves against large flows of migration that have been moving through Europe. Whilst there's a strong argument we should have accepted more refugees, that's not the same as letting anyone move here indiscriminately

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10 minutes ago, bowes said:

The Euro trashed a lot of Southern European economies and it's only a matter of time before Spain or Italy crash and are too big to bail out. Basically currency union without fiscal union is very dangerous. Underperforming economies naturally would have their currency fall on the exchange rates and then their exports would be more appealing. Italy has seen no growth in its economy since it joined the Euro because it's been permanently overvalued and therefore uncompetitive.

Joining Schengen would mean passportless travel from Brussels and Paris which are the two biggest terrorist hotspots in Europe. It would also mean we couldn't protect ourselves against large flows of migration that have been moving through Europe. Whilst there's a strong argument we should have accepted more refugees, that's not the same as letting anyone move here indiscriminately

Not so apparently:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-10

As for terrorism, I'd have said there's just as much chance of our terrorists going there as there is of theirs coming here.  A Federal Europe is the answer.  But of course that would also be poison to the little Englanders wouldn't it?

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35 minutes ago, bowes said:

You can't unilaterally cancel Article 50, it has to be unanimously agreed by all members to stop it. France would want concessions to let us stay 

The Article 50 author thinks you can. 

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11 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Not so apparently:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-10

As for terrorism, I'd have said there's just as much chance of our terrorists going there as there is of theirs coming here.  A Federal Europe is the answer.  But of course that would also be poison to the little Englanders wouldn't it?

Italy has had small increases and decreases but they've averaged out to no growth. Italy was 90% as wealthy as Germany per capita when they joined the Euro and they're now 75% as rich.

A Federal Europe would solve the Euro's economic problems but would trigger a huge nationalist backlash across the entirety of Europe. It's not just British people that don't want Europe to become a single country

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5 minutes ago, bowes said:

Italy has had small increases and decreases but they've averaged out to no growth. Italy was 90% as wealthy as Germany per capita when they joined the Euro and they're now 75% as rich.

A Federal Europe would solve the Euro's economic problems but would trigger a huge nationalist backlash across the entirety of Europe. It's not just British people that don't want Europe to become a single country

More unsupported assertions.  In the area of business in which I was engaged for forty years, Italy was the dominant player for 30 of them.  They lost out, but not to Germany, to the far East.  Korea, China, Indonesia, Singapore Malaysia.  They were taking steps to rectify this and apparently they are working.  You should not allow your obvious prejudices to cloud your view of what is best for our country.

The European economise generally seem to be forging ahead whist, since the Brexit vote ours is stagnating.  And IMO this will only get worse as Brexit bites.  To quote Al Jolson, "we ain't seen nothing yet."

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13 minutes ago, Trojan said:

More unsupported assertions.  In the area of business in which I was engaged for forty years, Italy was the dominant player for 30 of them.  They lost out, but not to Germany, to the far East.  Korea, China, Indonesia, Singapore Malaysia.  They were taking steps to rectify this and apparently they are working.  You should not allow your obvious prejudices to cloud your view of what is best for our country.

The European economise generally seem to be forging ahead whist, since the Brexit vote ours is stagnating.  And IMO this will only get worse as Brexit bites.  To quote Al Jolson, "we ain't seen nothing yet."

You're one of the most politically prejudiced on here.

The negative effect of the Euro in Italy is very clear cut, you'd need to be wilfully ignorant not to see it in the economic figures

We're obviously undergoing uncertainty but we were outgrowing most of the Eurozone before the uncertainty. As long as we don't do something stupid like leave with no deal or on WTO terms the long term effects are likely to be negligible for our economy of leaving the EU (either a small positive or small negative depending on if we can do a deal with the EU). And all post referendum economic projections have us outperforming France in the long run as the pre referendum ones did (though not necessarily on a per capita basis)

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9 hours ago, bowes said:

You're one of the most politically prejudiced on here.

The negative effect of the Euro in Italy is very clear cut, you'd need to be wilfully ignorant not to see it in the economic figures

We're obviously undergoing uncertainty but we were outgrowing most of the Eurozone before the uncertainty. As long as we don't do something stupid like leave with no deal or on WTO terms the long term effects are likely to be negligible for our economy of leaving the EU (either a small positive or small negative depending on if we can do a deal with the EU). And all post referendum economic projections have us outperforming France in the long run as the pre referendum ones did (though not necessarily on a per capita basis)

Do you think, after forty years of doing business with Italy, I'm not aware of the negative effect of the Euro?  But Italy needs the discipline the Euro brings.  Certainly since WWII Italy has always taken the easy way out of economic problems. devalue the currency, that's how just before they joined the Euro the lira was trading at 3000 to the £. in 1978 when I first became involved with Italy it was 1600.  It could not go on.  Now they appear to be on an even keel, with a growing economy, without devaluation. 

How do you know our current problems are temporary and not the opening symptoms of a major decline?.  You don't.  I may be prejudiced towards Europe , but for a very good reason.  I experienced what this country was like before we joined.  We were in decline.  We were the "sick man of Europe" and membership has helped cure that. 

Brexit is a madcap scheme encouraged by those who have most to gain from it. And those who support them will find that they have been dupes.  Especially when, as has been stated above, we have to crawl back asking for readmittance, on worse terms than we have now. 

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20 hours ago, ckn said:

The Article 50 author thinks you can. 

It's also been admitted it was written with the expectation it would never be used, hence why it's so useless.

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22 hours ago, bowes said:

You can't unilaterally cancel Article 50, it has to be unanimously agreed by all members to stop it. France would want concessions to let us stay 

Project Fear.

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