Sports Prophet

Challenge Cup Invitation to NRL Clubs

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As the WCC debate rages on, would an invitation to the NRL and its clubs to compete in the Challenge Cup be a better cross hemisphere competition than the WCC has ever been?

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1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

As the WCC debate rages on, would an invitation to the NRL and its clubs to compete in the Challenge Cup be a better cross hemisphere competition than the WCC has ever been?

I think it would, but it would be hard to organise. Would need a massive restructure of both competitions and that wont happen I'm afraid. 

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Nope...

For starters we're not even doing the WCC properly.

If we do just champion v champion then let's get it written doing that hosting duties rotate every year,none of this faffing about wondering who's doing what for months..

If we expand it then do so by creating meaningful games that enhance the competition..we should've expanded it to 4 teams..the 4 NRL & SL grand finalist,with the competition played over 2 weekends, 1st weekend would be the semi finals, NRL winner v SL runner up & SL winner v NRL runner up,2nd weekend the WCC final..

The actual way we expanded it was meaningless..2 games that meant nothing..and surprise,surprise it's not lasted..a few of us said it wouldn't!

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48 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

Nope...

For starters we're not even doing the WCC properly.

I agree with you there.

In my opinion though, a global Challenge Cup would be a bigger event and spectacle than any WCC and would give the fans some great occasions.

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4 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

As the WCC debate rages on, would an invitation to the NRL and its clubs to compete in the Challenge Cup be a better cross hemisphere competition than the WCC has ever been?

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

I agree with you there.

In my opinion though, a global Challenge Cup would be a bigger event and spectacle than any WCC and would give the fans some great occasions.

We've basically tried this once before already with the WCC in 97 between the two Super Leagues, it was an unmitigated disaster, and not because of lack of/bad planning.

I can't remember exactly how many but NH teams only won a handful of games against SH teams, and most of the games the NH teams were absolutely flogged, for example I went to the Raiders games in Canberra Against Halifax, London, and Wigan, I think we won all of those games by more then 50 points, I remember that we beat Halifax 70-6, the Raiders were so cocky after those thumpings that we only sent the reserve grade over to England, and we still won two of the games in England by massive margins (if I remember correctly we lost too London).

I also remember that NH teams that hadn't won a game made it into the Finals over SH teams that had won most (or all) of their games cause half the teams in the finals were supposed to be NH teams, and even so the grand final was still between two Aussie teams (Bris Broncos and Hunter Mariners).

It was also a massive hassle and incredibly expensive with teams gallivanting all over the planet, the cost of transport and the time it takes to travel across the globe has come a long way since 97, but it'd still be a logistical nightmare.

Long story short, the technology isn't there to do it properly yet and the gap between NRL clubs and (most ) SL clubs is still way to big, but even if it could reasonably be done I still doubt that many of the clubs (on either side of the world) would be happy with having to make multiple trips to the other side of the planet in the middle of the season. 

Edited by The Great Dane
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2 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

Nope...

For starters we're not even doing the WCC properly.

If we do just champion v champion then let's get it written doing that hosting duties rotate every year,none of this faffing about wondering who's doing what for months..

If we expand it then do so by creating meaningful games that enhance the competition..we should've expanded it to 4 teams..the 4 NRL & SL grand finalist,with the competition played over 2 weekends, 1st weekend would be the semi finals, NRL winner v SL runner up & SL winner v NRL runner up,2nd weekend the WCC final..

The actual way we expanded it was meaningless..2 games that meant nothing..and surprise,surprise it's not lasted..a few of us said it wouldn't!

I doubt that the NRL would be ok with the potential that the GF rematch could be played outside of the NRL season and for another trophy...

From an Australian perspective what the WCC really needs is a constant presence in Australia, having years when it's not on down here is the biggest thing that's killing it, and it seems to me that the best way to change that without just moving the WCC down here every year (which would be just as stupid as the current reverse that we have) would be to either play a three game series with hosting rights alternating or play two games WCC and runner up v runner up with one game in each hemisphere and hosting rights alternating. Logistically the later seems more realistic to me.   

But whatever happens for the love of god take the responsibility of organising it away from the clubs, and organise and start promoting it months in advance, before we even know who the premiers are, even if that means that it's played at neutral venues most years. 

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The nature of the CC - one off knockout games doesnt make it too easy, logistically expensive and clunky. Cross comp tournaments would need to involve groups. If you are going down that routr then just work up a proper WCS rather than altering the Challenge Cup.

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Yes brilliant idea , let's remove the option of British clubs to win one of the 2 trophys worth winning 

Some stupid ideas on here 

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13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The nature of the CC - one off knockout games doesnt make it too easy, logistically expensive and clunky. Cross comp tournaments would need to involve groups. If you are going down that routr then just work up a proper WCS rather than altering the Challenge Cup.

exactly right, knockout comp wouldnt work for the WCC logistically. It needs to be something that can be planned well in advance.

There is a question about what we can do with the challenge cup, its a bit of an odd mess at the moment that really doesnt seem to do itself justice.

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

exactly right, knockout comp wouldnt work for the WCC logistically. It needs to be something that can be planned well in advance.

There is a question about what we can do with the challenge cup, its a bit of an odd mess at the moment that really doesnt seem to do itself justice.

Personally im not against groups for the Challenge Cup if we are trying to maintain a set number of games - draw it at the start of the year, have seeding and sell them as part of season tickets (or CC Package Tickets), go to knockout from last 8 or so.

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Personally im not against groups for the Challenge Cup if we are trying to maintain a set number of games - draw it at the start of the year, have seeding and sell them as part of season tickets (or CC Package Tickets), go to knockout from last 8 or so.

I think groups would kill any chance the smaller clubs would have of making progress.

Edited by Gerrumonside ref

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7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think groups would kill any chance the smaller clubs would have of making progress.

Yeah it would kill that bit off for the chance to have guaranteed game(s) against SL opposition.

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Personally im not against groups for the Challenge Cup if we are trying to maintain a set number of games - draw it at the start of the year, have seeding and sell them as part of season tickets (or CC Package Tickets), go to knockout from last 8 or so.

part of the 'magic of the cup' to borrow a cliche, is the random nature of the draw but its a very inefficient way of running a comp. I'd question whether we are maximising what we can get from it. 

I personally wouldnt be against groups, but its difficult to fit it in. I think mid-season groups would get lost within the league comps  and it makes it difficult to give the competition context and momentum, something it sorely lacks now when up until the final its just a random selection of fixtures here and there.

A random draw also struggles sometimes with competitiveness to give the  competition meaning, Last year Leeds got to the Semi-finals winning three games by a combined score of 194-38, thats not getting anyone hyped.

Another benefit of group stages is it could guarantee lower league clubs a game against a Super League side every year. 

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12 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think groups would kill any chance the smaller clubs would have of making progress.

They arent anyway. Outside of the big 5 and Bradford there has been only Sheffield as another winner in 30years. With only 5 other finalists.

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

They arent anyway. Outside of the big 5 and Bradford there has been only Sheffield as another winner in 30years. With only 5 other finalists.

There’s still giantkillings though in the earlier rounds which to me is a big part of the mystique of the Challenge Cup.

Competitions with group stages tend to benefit the stronger teams from being upset on a one-off basis and being knocked out the competition.

I think all a group stage will do is reinforce the difference between the haves and have nots like it has in European club soccer.

 

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Messing about with the structure ? , we often read on here that that isn't the issue with the sport , yet some of those same posters are suggesting that to reinvigorate the CC 

What the Challenge Cup needs is a Championship Club winner 

Just Cas or HKR winning in recent years might have boosted it 

So essentially it's just the same problem the sport in the NH has , lack of competitiveness 

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1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

There’s still giantkillings though in the earlier rounds which to me is a big part of the mystique of the Challenge Cup.

Competitions with group stages tend to benefit the stronger teams from being upset on a one-off basis and being knocked out the competition.

I think all a group stage will do is reinforce the difference between the haves and have nots like it has in European club soccer.

 

But they are largely ignored unfortunately because the competition has little profile and no momentum at that point. Less than 1300 saw Swinton beat Hudds last year.

Im also not sure in practice how much difference it would make, especially in what would be a short group stage. If you are in groups of 4 if there is a 'shock' win then there is still a good chance that team will progress. 3 games isnt really enough to expect the stronger teams to make up for that loss.

 

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4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Messing about with the structure ? , we often read on here that that isn't the issue with the sport , yet some of those same posters are suggesting that to reinvigorate the CC 

What the Challenge Cup needs is a Championship Club winner 

Just Cas or HKR winning in recent years might have boosted it 

So essentially it's just the same problem the sport in the NH has , lack of competitiveness 

attendances arent uniformly terrible in the early stages because Cas or Hull KR havent won it in a while.

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But they are largely ignored unfortunately because the competition has little profile and no momentum at that point. Less than 1300 saw Swinton beat Hudds last year.

Im also not sure in practice how much difference it would make, especially in what would be a short group stage. If you are in groups of 4 if there is a 'shock' win then there is still a good chance that team will progress. 3 games isnt really enough to expect the stronger teams to make up for that loss.

 

I don’t think scrapping all the history and tinkering with it in a way that is hardly interesting (adding group stages) will do anything for the attendances.

It would certainly lower my interest in the competition.

It will also certainly ensure that almost every year only the Super League teams emerge from those groups as they will be insulated from the surprise of a one off defeat.

 

 

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Just now, Gerrumonside ref said:

I don’t think scrapping all the history and tinkering with it in a way that is hardly interesting (adding group stages) will do anything for the attendances.

It would certainly lower my interest in the competition.

It will also certainly ensure that almost every year only the Super League teams emerge from those groups as they will be insulated from the surprise of a one off defeat.

1

Im not sure you would scrap all the history, it would just be a slightly different format.

Only Super league clubs are progressing anyway. Lower league clubs don't make semi-finals and finals.

What groups would allow you to do is pre-plan the when and where, it would give the competition context and momentum and that should allow clubs to increase what are currently woeful attendances.

The figures right now are atrocious and need to be addressed because if we carry on as we are it will kill the competition.

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

Im not sure you would scrap all the history, it would just be a slightly different format.

Only Super league clubs are progressing anyway. Lower league clubs don't make semi-finals and finals.

What groups would allow you to do is pre-plan the when and where, it would give the competition context and momentum and that should allow clubs to increase what are currently woeful attendances.

The figures right now are atrocious and need to be addressed because if we carry on as we are it will kill the competition.

What does that third paragraph even mean?  Giving the competition ‘context and momentum’??

The competition is struggling because there is a massive gap between the Super League clubs and pretty much everyone else in the competition.

What you are suggesting (group stages) will actually make the problem worse and kill off the giant-killings.

Not a smart move and certainly not one that will enhance anybody’s interest.

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