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Trojan

Scottish Football= a question

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I don't know much about English football, let alone Scottish.  But some posts on the Cross Code forum set me wondering.  Scottish football is dominated by "The Old Firm" - Celtic and Rangers, latterly only by Celtic. The last non "Old Firm" club to win their championship was Aberdeen in 1984/5 when presumably the city was awash with oil money.  I was wondering what it would take to wrest this dominance away from Glasgow.  How much?  Is it really possible.  Any views on here?

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Celtic will keep winning nearly every game, will win the league and probably both cups, will possibly qualify for the Champions League and get shedloads of money. They will be richer than every other Scottish side and will keep winning nearly every game...

 

...put on repeat until quite a long way into the future.

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Scottish football had a tv deal with Setanta - but they didn't get the money as they went bust.

Rangers have had huge financial problems - but still draw the crowds so will eventually get back.

Celtic win the league and then gain the monies from a quick foray into Europe.

It may even up,slightly,when a tv deal is more beneficial to more clubs.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/scottish-football-paid-a-pittance-10124880

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21 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

You have to wonder how long the current situation is sustainable. Being a Celtic fan can't be much fun surely?

Like being a Wigan fan in the late 80s to mid 90s? 

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What I meant was that the Arsenal/Man U hegemony was broken in England by foreigners buying up clubs and shoveling money in, why wouldn't someone similar do the same with a promising Scottish side?  It wouldn't even take as much money.  Or would it not be worth it?

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3 minutes ago, Phil said:

Like being a Wigan fan in the late 80s to mid 90s? 

I worked with Wigan fans in the nineties, and TBH many of them were a bit fed up with Wigan's dominance of the game, although they were disappointed with the Sheffield result at Wembley.   Although at the same company I worked with a Saints fan in the noughties and his smugness was intolerable.

Edited by Trojan
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26 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

You have to wonder how long the current situation is sustainable. Being a Celtic fan can't be much fun surely?

Rangers won about 9 in a row, before that Celtic won about 9 in a row, now Celtic are back to that streak again.  The fans don't seem to get tired of it though.

The Aberdeen win in the 80s was unusual enough that it persuaded Man Utd to poach their manager, Alex Ferguson.  Long term, Aberdeen are probably the most likely to get the occasional win over them and maybe even the occasional title but that's still not a short-odds bet.

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5 minutes ago, Trojan said:

What I meant was that the Arsenal/Man U hegemony was broken in England by foreigners buying up clubs and shoveling money in, why wouldn't someone similar do the same with a promising Scottish side?  It wouldn't even take as much money.  Or would it not be worth it?

They've had that, people with a bit of money buying in, realising that it's a 9-figure sink-hole to get anywhere near Celtic or Rangers then walking away after burdening the club with tons of debt.  There just isn't the multiple income sources of massive Sky money, huge gate receipts on huge ticket prices and ease of access to the massively profitable Champions League.  Only the league winner gets into the Champions League meaning you have to already be the top team.  Too high a risk for a money man without billions in the bank.

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Thistle v hibs had 4.9k in attendance. 1.9k from Edinburgh.

Buy any Scottish paper and it' wall to wall old firm. Any other club is restricted to a few lines.

Sports scene on BBC Scotland is a similar vein. They've all got their zips down over the old firm.... Motherwell saints and the tractor boys barely get a look in.

Clubs outside the old firm can't hope to match them for income and ponsorship and sponsorship etc.

There are similarlarities to comparing league and union..... 

Perhaps I shouldn't have made that comparison.....

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Everything's wrong with the game in Scotland IMO.  From the top end down to the bottom.

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1 hour ago, Phil said:

Like being a Wigan fan in the late 80s to mid 90s? 

And that was unsustainable. 

Scottish football is a different beast altogether because Celtic and Rangers have dominated for so long and are so much bigger than the other clubs.

Football seems immune to the decline that other sports would inevitably have in the same situation. The sport is such a part of the culture that people don't tend to stop going if teams are doing badly. However, the Old Firm have always been top class sides but this is becoming the case less and less. 

I just wonder with the modern world and awareness of this whether they will be able to sustain this situation indefinitely. I'm pretty sure if Celtic and Rangers could find a way into English football they'd have do it in a heartbeat.

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We're one country, we really should be one league system.

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There is so much hatred in Scotland that a title is celebrated hugely - irrespective of rival quality.

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3 hours ago, Trojan said:

What I meant was that the Arsenal/Man U hegemony was broken in England by foreigners8 buying up clubs and shoveling money in, why wouldn't someone similar do the same with a promising Scottish side?  It wouldn't even take as much money.  Or would it not be worth it?

I think the size of the fan bases between the 2 large Glasgow clubs and the rest is too wide to overcome.

Celtic and Rangers have crowd capacities of around 60,000 and 50,000 respectively. The next 2 largest, Aberdeen and Hibernian have capacities of just above 20,000.

Celtic and Rangers have fan bases in most other Scottish towns and cities also. There is no club such as a Chelses or Man city that could potentially grow to the same size, even with financial backing.

There is too much religious rivalry for the two Glasgow clubs to play in England. This of course is another reason why they are so huge. It is different in Edinburgh where the "Catholic" founded club, Hibs, are more representative as the team of Leith than any religious support.

I found it a very interesting question Trojan with some good replies so far.

 

Edited by Niels
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10 minutes ago, Niels said:

It is different in Edinburgh where the "Catholic" founded club, Hibs, are more representative as the team of Leith than any religious support..

 

It might have changed a bit from when I was last actually at a Scottish football game (mid 90s) but Hearts were definitely the Protestant team (I was leafleted by the UVF on my way in once) and Hibs the Catholic team. Although for both the dig was that they were just Rangers/Celtic fans who couldn't afford the train fare.

I actually really enjoyed attending Scottish football. When I lived in Carlisle we would far more often head north to a game than stick with Carlisle United. Most (all?) fans accept that the gruesome twosome dominate but then enjoy their own rivalries and in-game passions.

There's no way anybody could create a team in Scotland to rival Celtic now. They're a global brand with 60k attendances. I doubt most people reading this thread could confidently name all the other teams in their division - and none of them will post higher than 15k averages this year.

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17 hours ago, ckn said:

Rangers won about 9 in a row, before that Celtic won about 9 in a row, now Celtic are back to that streak again.  The fans don't seem to get tired of it though.

Old Firm domination has been the status quo for so long that most fans are used to nothing else. I'm sure they'd like to see someone break up the pattern with another club or two regularly contending for titles, but I suspect most of them don't see it being likely any time soon.

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1 minute ago, Futtocks said:

Old Firm domination has been the status quo for so long that most fans are used to nothing else. I'm sure they'd like to see someone break up the pattern with another club or two regularly contending for titles, but I suspect most of them don't see it being likely any time soon.

But from what's been quoted above, the crowds that the rest draw don't seem to make financing another club a worthwhile project.  Even when Man City were struggling, they were still getting big crowds.  Plus of course the fruit from the Premiership money tree was there for all to harvest.  Apparently "the old frim" apart, there is no money tree in Scottish soccer.  The whole thing is a mystery to me.  When I was more interested in soccer than I am now, the English League was full of Scottish players.  The Scottish World Cup side of 1974 contained 5 of the Leeds U championship winning side from that season plus Denis Law.  Are they no longer producing these players?  Or is it that they're not as good as the imports from the rest of the world?  As I say I'm pretty ignorant.

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I know nothing about soccer either but it seems to me that it is the English Premiership not the Scottish Premiership is the exception rather than the rule. If you look at the propensity for a "Leicester City" to win in one of the major European domestic leagues and it is near to zero. La Liga is dominated by Barca, Real and Athletico, the turkish top flight by Beşiktaş, Fenerbahçe, Galatasaray, the Bundesliga by Bayern Munich and the Serie A by Inter, AC and Juve. This doesnt answer your question i admit but maybe it leads others to determine what it is about England rather than Scotland that has broken the dominance Man U/Arsenal. Maybe its to do with us not asking too many/enough questions about where the club owners money has come from!?!

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Rangers went bust chasing the dream and left the door open for 5 years of absolute domination by Celtic, which enabled them to keep more money and dominate even more. I reckon I could manage Celtic to at least a title, and to be virtually as good as they are in Europe. Which is "not very".

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1 hour ago, tim2 said:

Rangers went bust chasing the dream and left the door open for 5 years of absolute domination by Celtic, which enabled them to keep more money and dominate even more. I reckon I could manage Celtic to at least a title, and to be virtually as good as they are in Europe. Which is "not very".

But the door was open, and no one else was able to take advantage.

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Just now, Trojan said:

But the door was open, and no one else was able to take advantage.

I think the door was open in the 1980's.

Perhaps, Aberdeen could have been the anti-Sectarian club.  Rangers were wealthy, but did not employ Catholics.  Celtic would employ either, but had a bit less money.  Also, clubs in like Dundee and Malmø were competing with the best in Europe.  If there was ever a time to become a giant, that was it.

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Just now, Bob8 said:

I think the door was open in the 1980's.

Perhaps, Aberdeen could have been the anti-Sectarian club.  Rangers were wealthy, but did not employ Catholics.  Celtic would employ either, but had a bit less money.  Also, clubs in like Dundee and Malmø were competing with the best in Europe.  If there was ever a time to become a giant, that was it.

Aberdeen won in 1984/'5, and as I say above, I reckon it was due to North Sea oil money.  What puzzles me is why it never happened again.   Jack Walker shoveled money into Blackburn so they could win the Premiership, and then retreated.  What puzzled me is why some multi-billionaire (Brian Souter perhaps) hasn't seen a chance for self glorification by a similar feat in Scoltland (or Fev for that matter :) )

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5 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Aberdeen won in 1984/'5, and as I say above, I reckon it was due to North Sea oil money.  What puzzles me is why it never happened again.   Jack Walker shoveled money into Blackburn so they could win the Premiership, and then retreated.  What puzzled me is why some multi-billionaire (Brian Souter perhaps) hasn't seen a chance for self glorification by a similar feat in Scoltland (or Fev for that matter :) )

I once heard a story that Aberdeen were being touted for takeover but their advisors pointed out that no big-name star would willingly move to Aberdeen for anything short of almost double the money they'd get in Glasgow or Edinburgh.  That puts an entirely new perspective on the recruitment of players capable of a consistent challenge.

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I cringe when season after season celtic play in the champions league and get hidings from the real giants of football, its like "whats the point" cant see why the English prem that has Swansea in it cant have celtic too, they were created by a catholic church back in the day as a way to raise money for the poor and destitute of Glasgow - its now just like the school bully that never left school and still goes round bashing the yung uns

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