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stevereed100

Just a Thought....automatic Promotion and Relegation from Super League!

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After experiencing the excitement of a year in the Championship it strikes me that Leigh also benefited from their journey in SL. Both clubs are entering 2018 much better prepared with a revitalised determination to succeed.

SL benefited from Leigh's presence and their fans and Stadium had a good run for their money and fresh faces were seen. The Championship teams experienced much bigger away support and the challenge of matching up to a full time "SL" team. And the KR fans enjoyed new travels and the party atmosphere of Sunday away trips of pre match get together. As a club we made a commitment and rejuvenated ourselves after 10 years in SL. And increased our support going into the Championship and breaking all records this year.

Relegation and Promotion ( if only for a year) might be a godsend for Salford and Widnes or Halifax, Featherstone or London.

Just a thought!

Edited by stevereed100
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Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the method you propose, I totally agree with the notion that sometimes to go forwards, you have to go backwards first. In RL Huddersfield and Cas stand as testament to that imo. 

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P&R between Pro and Semi Pro leagues is pointless without a time protection for the promoted club.

Leigh (sorry Leigh fans but you are the example and I am not picking on you), of a club that  have tried going up from part time, straight back down, and then coming up full time from a part time league and going straight back down.

Leigh fans hate me ( I don't know why), but I would like them to succeed by being given a three year shot at SL when they get in, I have said that all along but for some reason Starbug and his mates seem to think this notion means I hate Leigh.

 

 

Edited by Padge

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Yup, the old "yo-yo" situation that afflicted Swinton years ago. 

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I do think the yo-yo effect is played up. Any real evidence and impact of this yo-yo effect?

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17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do think the yo-yo effect is played up. Any real evidence and impact of this yo-yo effect?

 

Yep there is, I can't post it at the moment, but believe me it truly exists. 

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41 minutes ago, Padge said:

 

Yep there is, I can't post it at the moment, but believe me it truly exists. 

 I look forward to you posting evidence. Genuinely interested.

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Yes, I favour automatic promotion/relegation.  For one thing it introduces a little bit of variety in the fixture list which helps both competitions.

I also agree it introduces huge problems when the border between Full-time and Part- time is marked by the two divisions.

From my point of view to make promotion and relegation we have to make sure that the difference in funding between the 2 divisions is reduced.

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if we had three up three down between super league and championship , you might get more people willing to invest in championship clubs hence bring more money into the game . In early 90s there were some very big attendances in the old division two with just two up two down , I think teams like Halifax, Hull KR and Oldham all averaged over 5,000 . I remember 9,000 watching league two game between Huddersfield and Halifax. Then 8,000 at Rochdale v Oldham in Rochdale's promotion season . Maybe we license the top two leagues.    

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No, absolutely disagree and that’s coming  from a Fax fan 

Edited by Phil

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17 hours ago, stevereed100 said:

After experiencing the excitement of a year in the Championship it strikes me that Leigh also benefited from their journey in SL. Both clubs are entering 2018 much better prepared with a revitalised determination to succeed.

SL benefited from Leigh's presence and their fans and Stadium had a good run for their money and fresh faces were seen. The Championship teams experienced much bigger away support and the challenge of matching up to a full time "SL" team. And the KR fans enjoyed new travels and the party atmosphere of Sunday away trips of pre match get together. As a club we made a commitment and rejuvenated ourselves after 10 years in SL. And increased our support going into the Championship and breaking all records this year.

Relegation and Promotion ( if only for a year) might be a godsend for Salford and Widnes or Halifax, Featherstone or London.

Just a thought!

There are two options:

1. You are a visionary. No-one else has thought of this before.  

2. The issues have been gone over many, many times and you are ignoring them.  

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2 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

Bottom two v top two "super 4s"....retaining a 2nd v 3rd million quid game..

Simple.

Or top goes up, then second and third playoff (both home semis) with second and third bottom

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I wonder, SteveReed100, you would feel the same way if Hull KR were now facing a second season in the Championship?

I say this as a Bulls fans who still recalls the freshness and excitement of being in the Championship in 2015. As history shows, we lost the MPG and things really began to spiral downwards after that. Money that we didn't have was spent on a vain bid to replicate the Top 4 finish in 2016, crowds dwindled as the novelty factor wore off, and  - of course -there was a degree of mismanagement that has been well documented.

TL:DR, one season in the Championship is fine - so long as it is just the one season!

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1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

There are two options:

1. You are a visionary. No-one else has thought of this before.  

2. The issues have been gone over many, many times and you are ignoring them.  

A visionary if you say so.

I raised the topic (again?) as I looked forward to 2018 with a renewed enthusiasm after the great experience my club has had in the last season in a very refreshing Championship. I then wondered about Leigh's experience and took a view that they too had benefited.

So why have a play off system that favours a no change result.

But if you are bored you know what to do.

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4 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I wonder, SteveReed100, you would feel the same way if Hull KR were now facing a second season in the Championship?

I say this as a Bulls fans who still recalls the freshness and excitement of being in the Championship in 2015. As history shows, we lost the MPG and things really began to spiral downwards after that. Money that we didn't have was spent on a vain bid to replicate the Top 4 finish in 2016, crowds dwindled as the novelty factor wore off, and  - of course -there was a degree of mismanagement that has been well documented.

TL:DR, one season in the Championship is fine - so long as it is just the one season!

I believe I would be relaxed if we were still in the Championship, after all in my support since 1960 we have spent many years in the lower Leagues. The Championship has a lot to offer...Sunday rugby,genuine fans,honest hard-working "owners", traditional grounds,competitive teams, genuine players.....

The Bradford experience is not a true measure to match against. A millstone of a ground, a failure to re-ignite the fans, spending money and offering dreams that couldn't be afforded. And to date have any lessons been learnt?

Here's a question does having to travel distances to all away games give Hull and Rovers a headstart in getting the fans "together"?

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I'd say its been with very mixed results, relegated teams:

1996 Workington

1997 Oldham

2001 Huddersfield

2002 Salford

2003 Halifax

2004 Cas

2005 Widnes & Leigh

2006 Cas

2007 Salford

2014 London & Bradford

2016 Hull KR

2017 Leigh

so with relegation 3 teams have been relegated twice (Leigh, Salford, Cas)

3 have gone under and or languishing in League one (Oldham, Workington, Bradford)

2 are "regrouping" in the Championship (London and Halifax)

Then there is Huddersfield who came back and got themselves settled with a bit of a good run as well but have backed away again and Widnes who regrouped and came back but are still bottom end of the table. 

Yes Cas has come good the last couple of season. Salford did well for a season or 2 with koukash but have also flirted down the basement. 

basically what I am trying to say without going into the "but if cas can do it" type arguments is that some make it work and come back, once back you still have to do a lot of work to take the next step, some find their place in the grand scheme and some go right through the system.. 

You can take this to football too if you look at the first premier league table and see what has happened to all those clubs.. 

P&R has its positives it also has its negatives, for every success there is always failure.. it shouldnt be lauded as the saviour in the same way as it is not normally the reason for a demise, it can be the final nail in the coffin or the final piece of a jigsaw but that is pretty much all it is.. as a sport though you need to chose if your sport can sustain the negatives to gain the positives, and if it can how you can enhance the system to make that work to the best of its abilities.... I am not sure a straight P&R has proven to do this and the present system is too young to judge.

thats my twopenneth on this anyway.

Edited by RP London
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The biggest issue is he difference between full-time and part time teams.  If the Championship was fully full time then P&R as we are well versed with in this country is fine. Problem as has been mentioned by others is the full to part time difference between the leagues.  This ain't like soccer were the clubs are fully professional and have been for ever between the top leagues.

We need a system that enables clubs that have shown they can sustain a full time professional set up to be able to join the only full time professional league - namely Super League without jeopardising the few full time clubs we have and potentially the professional sport we have that was a struggle to get to. That is the dilemma we struggle with in a simple P&R system.

Edited by redjonn
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7 minutes ago, redjonn said:

The biggest issue is he difference between full-time and part time teams.  If the Championship was fully full time then P&R as we are well versed with in this country is fine. Problem as has been mentioned by others is the full to part time difference between the leagues.  This ain't like soccer were the clubs are fully professional and have been for ever between the top leagues.

We need a system that enables clubs that have shown they can sustain a full time professional set up to be able to join the only full time professional league - namely Super League without jeopardising the few full time clubs we have and potentially the professional sport we have that was a struggle to get to. That is the dilemma we struggle with in a simple P&R system.

Its not about the step up per se.. you can solve that with licencing.. its the step down that is the killer.. with such a drop in revenue (crowds) but trying to keep a full time team you need to step immediately back up (couple of injuries and this might not happen) or you have to cut your cloth accordingly, making it again more difficult to go back up.. at which point the "consolidate" argument is a harder one.. the champ is getting stronger at the top end but there is a big gap below that top end. The real key to P&R is not the division above (clubs wouldnt go bust if they were bottom of super league staying at the level of spending etc they were in the champ, therefore not getting a nasty shock upon relegation) it is the level below that they are relegated into when cutting our costs has such a big effect on ability to reform.. without men/women with deep pockets this is a very difficult problem to solve.

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13 minutes ago, RP London said:

Its not about the step up per se.. you can solve that with licencing.. its the step down that is the killer.. with such a drop in revenue (crowds) but trying to keep a full time team you need to step immediately back up (couple of injuries and this might not happen) or you have to cut your cloth accordingly, making it again more difficult to go back up.. at which point the "consolidate" argument is a harder one.. the champ is getting stronger at the top end but there is a big gap below that top end. The real key to P&R is not the division above (clubs wouldnt go bust if they were bottom of super league staying at the level of spending etc they were in the champ, therefore not getting a nasty shock upon relegation) it is the level below that they are relegated into when cutting our costs has such a big effect on ability to reform.. without men/women with deep pockets this is a very difficult problem to solve.

That was one of the points I was hoping to make, namely jeapardising clubs that may drop down. Especially as it took many struggles to get the sport to have a fully professional league that the current system and a simple P&R impacts.  

Some of our strongest financial clubs have been involved in the middle 8's.  It wouldn't have taken much for them to have dropped down, especially when a few Championship clubs are stronger.  It seems a daft system strategically that pushes our strongest financially healthy clubs into that quagmire you describe. By system I don't just mean the league structure and P&R system but also salary caps, etc.

Edited by redjonn

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Both times Salford were relegated they remained full time, however it didn't stop the club being asset stripped. Some players wearing the new shirt before relegation was confirmed.

Not sure there are great advantages other than allowing clubs to off load some contracts

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1 hour ago, redjonn said:

Their is an answer but we find it unpalatable.......

Do we ? Give it to us straight 

But dont forget ALL the details 

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