Toronto (Merged threads)

[deluded pom?]

3 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

As opposed to when they are not?  When does that happen?

Shhh Bob. Cameron now thinks I’m a prophet of some sort. 

[deluded pom?]

Why sad JD? 

[DoubleD]

7 hours ago, SL17 said:

You're not really backing your comments with any factual evidence.Do you have any to share?

You want me to show you their accounts? Pretty sure I can’t do that. So you’ll have to take their word for it.

We’ve had plenty of threads on this before, have a look. Not sure why you cannot understand this

[LeytherRob]

7 hours ago, DoubleD said:

I said TWP are not far off breaking even in their first year, as was indicated by them after the season. Which part of that are you struggling to grasp?

Do you have any links? I'd like to think of myself as pretty well read on the project but maybe I have missed something there. I honestly don't see how they could be even close in year one though, it's well established that they have no central funding, and from recent events they make nothing from premier sports. I'm pretty sure I read their season tickets were on the cheap side last year as were match day admissions, which isn't a criticism btw, they need exposure at this stage. They also don't have any side revenue from the stadium as its rented, and they only have one main sponsor so unless air transat are paying premier league rates on sponsorship I don't see how they can possibly be covering transatlantic travel for home and away sides(plus board and food), and funding a full time squad and backroom with out some pretty heavy director involvement. It doesn't make sense. 

[DoubleD]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Do you have any links? I'd like to think of myself as pretty well read on the project but maybe I have missed something there. I honestly don't see how they could be even close in year one though, it's well established that they have no central funding, and from recent events they make nothing from premier sports. I'm pretty sure I read their season tickets were on the cheap side last year as were match day admissions, which isn't a criticism btw, they need exposure at this stage. They also don't have any side revenue from the stadium as its rented, and they only have one main sponsor so unless air transat are paying premier league rates on sponsorship I don't see how they can possibly be covering transatlantic travel for home and away sides(plus board and food), and funding a full time squad and backroom with out some pretty heavy director involvement. It doesn't make sense. 

Without trawling through the thousands of other pages on Toronto on here, I don’t. Other Canadian posters might have it to hand and will be able to vouch. 

So the travel costs are covered. They have 8k spectators on a stadium with peppercorn rent. Huge food, beverage and merchandise sales. TV deal in Canada plus sale of Last Tackle programme. Additional sponsors including a load in UK. Their squad/backroom staff was also pretty lean

I don’t see how it’s not realistic or make logical sense. I will take their word on it

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

So you're saying Toronto is already self funding?

Remember we now live in the post-truth world and alternative facts are all around.

 

[John WP Fan]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

Without trawling through the thousands of other pages on Toronto on here, I don’t. Other Canadian posters might have it to hand and will be able to vouch. 

So the travel costs are covered. They have 8k spectators on a stadium with peppercorn rent. Huge food, beverage and merchandise sales. TV deal in Canada plus sale of Last Tackle programme. Additional sponsors including a load in UK. Their squad/backroom staff was also pretty lean

I don’t see how it’s not realistic or make logical sense. I will take their word on it

My take on this is a bit different:

Travel costs are covered, but I would be very surprised if Air Transat is handing over much cash on top of that. Let's be very conservative and estimate 5,000 PAID attendees per game averaged over the season, at an average of about $20/ticket. $That's 100,000 per game or about $1,000,000 in ticket sales. Their rent is incredibly cheap (I think it was only about $20,000 for the season!). I doubt they get anything from food or beverage sales (one of the beer vendors told me that even they don't make much after covering their costs to set up at a game, and are doing it more for the exposure of their brand). They did sell some merchandise, and could have sold far more if they had a better online store (early on it was too expensive to ship stuff for Toronto fans; later on it was problematic for those overseas) and much more inventory. I doubt they are getting any significant revenue from TV or online streaming of games yet. The off-field staff was incredibly lean last season. I think all of the above is a fantastic start, but I doubt it quite adds up to breaking even. This year I expect an average of 8,000 paid fans at higher prices, and much more merchandise sold, so they should get closer.

But there is no reason they ought to have broken even the first year. They made an investment in presenting a great sport to a city that (apart from a few ex-pats and local enthusiasts) had never heard of it. The team is still largely unknown here, and I believe there is huge potential for support and revenue to grow dramatically. Everyone I dragged to a game last season wants to come back for more. With closer, competitive games this year and more time for the word to spread, I expect sellouts at most home games.

[JDINTHEHIZZOUSE]

2 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Why sad JD? 

Because you are quite right.Somebody mentions Toronto then leigh get dragged into it and the same things get said time and time again.Its all paul rowleys fault!

[Wolford6]

Whether or not the Wolfpack's finances break even is irrelevant to anybody else but the club's owners and debtors.

Whether or not the Wolfpack's team performs well is of interest, but nothing much more,  to fans of other teams and of vital importance to the Wolfpack players. To the Wolfpack's owners, the business strategy will dictate the extent of their concern.

 

Since when did the finances of the Giants, Salford, London, the Bulls and Wakefield break even on a regular basis?

And we've lost a complete team over the past two seasons.

 

I hope Toronto have a great year. It's what the competition needs.

[DoubleD]

56 minutes ago, John WP Fan said:

But there is no reason they ought to have broken even the first year. They made an investment in presenting a great sport to a city that (apart from a few ex-pats and local enthusiasts) had never heard of it. The team is still largely unknown here, and I believe there is huge potential for support and revenue to grow dramatically. Everyone I dragged to a game last season wants to come back for more. With closer, competitive games this year and more time for the word to spread, I expect sellouts at most home games.

Quite, what they’ve achieved in their first year is a phenomenal achievement and nor should they be expected to be self sufficient at the moment. My point was merely to counter the argument that they’re solely reliant on Argyle. Yes he’s funding it but they actually have the early stages of some decent roots for sustainability, which other clubs with over 100 years experience struggle with, even with their big annual payouts. 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, John WP Fan said:

My take on this is a bit different:

Travel costs are covered, but I would be very surprised if Air Transat is handing over much cash on top of that. Let's be very conservative and estimate 5,000 PAID attendees per game averaged over the season, at an average of about $20/ticket. $That's 100,000 per game or about $1,000,000 in ticket sales. Their rent is incredibly cheap (I think it was only about $20,000 for the season!). I doubt they get anything from food or beverage sales (one of the beer vendors told me that even they don't make much after covering their costs to set up at a game, and are doing it more for the exposure of their brand). They did sell some merchandise, and could have sold far more if they had a better online store (early on it was too expensive to ship stuff for Toronto fans; later on it was problematic for those overseas) and much more inventory. I doubt they are getting any significant revenue from TV or online streaming of games yet. The off-field staff was incredibly lean last season. I think all of the above is a fantastic start, but I doubt it quite adds up to breaking even. This year I expect an average of 8,000 paid fans at higher prices, and much more merchandise sold, so they should get closer.

But there is no reason they ought to have broken even the first year. They made an investment in presenting a great sport to a city that (apart from a few ex-pats and local enthusiasts) had never heard of it. The team is still largely unknown here, and I believe there is huge potential for support and revenue to grow dramatically. Everyone I dragged to a game last season wants to come back for more. With closer, competitive games this year and more time for the word to spread, I expect sellouts at most home games.

I'd say your as close as anybody there john , so with an exchange rate as it is at the moment the TWP are generating around £ 750.000 actual income , to attract the players they have and the coaching staff I'd suggest they have outgoings in the region of £ 2.5 million this after negating the travel and accomadation in canada

so i'd suggest a 1 st season cheque from Mr Argyle in the reason of $ 1.5 - 2.0 million

massive by RL standards , miniscule by virtually any other pro sport in the world , Small by his aparent wealth , so hopefully he is happy to continue similar for a few more years until the potential increased income materialises

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Bob8 said:

As opposed to when they are not?  When does that happen?

I was once told there is no such thing as bad publicity Bob,

Now, when all the fans were addressed and requested that they work as one and get the good name of Leigh Centurions RLFC to the fore on any forum in any discussion that takes place, its working well wouldn't you say?

[Futtocks]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I was once told there is no such thing as bad publicity Bob,

Operation Yewtree. 'Nuff said.

[Scubby]

Why do we even try to understand what the Toronto financial model and plans are? 

• Firstly, we have no real knowledge of the NA sports market.
• Secondly, a trans-Atlantic team has never been formed so we don't know what doors will be opened because of this.
• Thirdly, we have no real knowledge of the NA sport market.

We do we suddenly feel Toronto are on some kind of 90s retro Cougarmania north of England model? We haven't got the foggiest about their aims and objectives yet all pretend to be experts. 

[TheReaper]

13 hours ago, The Parksider said:

If you were a businessman and you wanted to open six businesses over 10 years and it was pointed out that the real world problem is there's no qualified staff on the market to stock those businesses  unless you poach them which the established businesses won't stand for, would you as a proper businessman just dismiss such a fact as just being "negative" when it's a reality, because that is what you have done in your piece.  

In your scenario here, the business would find the best people they could,  and get started training them to do what's needed. Possibly develop their own methods of doing so. Look at any number of specialized fields. Do you think anyone ever said, "gee, it would be great to build this offshore oil rig, too bad there's only a couple underwater welders" . No, they'd go hire some regular welders and teach them how to do it underwater. Or find some scuba divers and teach them how to weld.

It's only a problem if you can't afford to keep the business afloat long enough to get up to speed.  It costs money to train people and build infrastructure. And sometimes it takes a while for money to come back in.

If you're completely relying on existing potential personnel, then you aren't innovating,  you're going along with the status quo. That's fine in some businesses -  residential plumbing doesn't need a ton of innovators, it needs competent standard plumbers to fit out buildings. Tons of tech companies need to start from the ground up developing coding,  or scientific breakthroughs,  etc. Did Elon Musk go "oh Darn, all the space techs work at NASA, not enough for me to hire" ?

Note, before some one nit picks these examples, yes I agree they're not perfect analogies,  and I'm not in those fields to be an expert. But the point I'm illustrating with them stands, imo.

Now I'll get to RL.

1. "There aren't enough players" yes there are. There are players who didn't quite make it into SL teams, Champ teams, League 1 teams. There are thousands, I read on here, of Australians who don't make the NRL, play in high quality semi pro or amateur comps, who don't get spotted or there just isn't room for them all. There are lots of players, if you look past any hangups about where they come from. Yes local players can boost interest and marketability.  But if you already have interest,  then getting skilled players from around the world is fine. In fact that creates its own interest.

2. "Yeah there's players, but they aren't 'up to standard'/ good enough" . Well, I have two things to say to that. First,  whether you watch the best 50 players or the best 300 players... you're still watching the "best players", in the number that is needed (may apply to NRL more than SL).

Second.  By adding more professional environments, there are more opportunities for players to increase their skill level. More opportunities make for more players seeing it as a viable career. 

It won't  be directly attributable to one team either.  Say 5 clubs "lose" a player or two to a new team. They will continue their development at the new team. Each of those 5 clubs now has the resources to put into one or two new players, someone who just barely didn't make the cut before due to a lack of opportunity. 

I also think fears of talent dilution aren't as big a deal as some. We all know that two evenly matched teams make for an entertaining game. At any level - kids, juniors, adult amateur in the park. The problem comes from what happens when a new team is added, the new lower "floor" of talent added, is disproportionately concentrated in the new team, making it difficult for them. North American leagues solve this by having a draft system that ensures relative parity, and by using expansion drafts when new teams are added, which allows the new team to start closer to the average strength of the league. Maybe there's a way to apply that to RL? Maybe,  maybe not, but doing nothing for sure won't accomplish anything. 

[Mattrhino]

3 hours ago, Scubby said:

Why do we even try to understand what the Toronto financial model and plans are? 

• Firstly, we have no real knowledge of the NA sports market.
• Secondly, a trans-Atlantic team has never been formed so we don't know what doors will be opened because of this.
• Thirdly, we have no real knowledge of the NA sport market.

We do we suddenly feel Toronto are on some kind of 90s retro Cougarmania north of England model? We haven't got the foggiest about their aims and objectives yet all pretend to be experts. 

North American sports teams don't make money through bog standard 20 quid tickets they make thier money through hospitality. They LOVE being able to show off in the VIP section and will pay through the nose for it.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Scubby said:

Why do we even try to understand what the Toronto financial model and plans are? 

• Firstly, we have no real knowledge of the NA sports market.
• Secondly, a trans-Atlantic team has never been formed so we don't know what doors will be opened because of this.
• Thirdly, we have no real knowledge of the NA sport market.

We do we suddenly feel Toronto are on some kind of 90s retro Cougarmania north of England model? We haven't got the foggiest about their aims and objectives yet all pretend to be experts. 

I just knew you had a pressure relief valve lurking somewhere within your deepest sub-conscious.

[Captain Survival]

There is lots of sideways discussion going on again.

So to move onto the thread topic, @manu266 indicated in one of threads in our TWP subforum that TWP has had many offers or choices (I am paraphrasing) for replacements for the 3 lost bodies.  Does anyone care to make any guesses as to whom or might that be disclosed in the next League Express edition?

I also see that we have lost Tom Armstrong due to injury.  I do not know any details - its from my peers in our subform that I know this.

[Kayakman]

21 minutes ago, Captain Survival said:

There is lots of sideways discussion going on again.

So to move onto the thread topic, @manu266 indicated in one of threads in our TWP subforum that TWP has had many offers or choices (I am paraphrasing) for replacements for the 3 lost bodies.  Does anyone care to make any guesses as to whom or might that be disclosed in the next League Express edition?

I also see that we have lost Tom Armstrong due to injury.  I do not know any details - its from my peers in our subform that I know this.

How soon you forget Captain...If you will recall I predicted months ago that we would be bringing in three (3) new players for the first game against Leigh...our English friends have no idea what I'm talking about (as usual) but they will never forget these three once they see them play Leigh....they will get right to business once the game starts.  They told me this when they signed the hat and promised to "show Leigh our love."

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Captain Survival said:

There is lots of sideways discussion going on again.

So to move onto the thread topic, @manu266 indicated in one of threads in our TWP subforum that TWP has had many offers or choices (I am paraphrasing) for replacements for the 3 lost bodies.  Does anyone care to make any guesses as to whom or might that be disclosed in the next League Express edition?

I also see that we have lost Tom Armstrong due to injury.  I do not know any details - its from my peers in our subform that I know this.

Armstrong requires a hip operation. But the club won't be short of options to bring in fresh blood.

[Cake Tiger]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

How soon you forget Captain...If you will recall I predicted months ago that we would be bringing in three (3) new players for the first game against Leigh...our English friends have no idea what I'm talking about (as usual) but they will never forget these three once they see them play Leigh....they will get right to business once the game starts.  They told me this when they signed the hat and promised to "show Leigh our love."

 

Slap Shot - not a massive film in Britain but some will have heard of it.

[Getmefood]

Wonder if they will announce some replacements and hopefully much needed depth. The Championship will not be easy and a few extra players would be needed also. If some Canadian or American football players were to sign it would have to be with the proposed Hamilton club. 

[The Parksider]

17 hours ago, TheReaper said:

In your scenario here, the business would find the best people they could,  and get started training them to do what's needed.Now I'll get to RL.

"There aren't enough players" yes there are. There are players who didn't quite make it into SL teams, Champ teams, League 1 teams. There are thousands...."Yeah there's players, but they aren't 'up to standard'/ good enough" . Well, I have two things to say to that. First,  whether you watch the best 50 players or the best 300 players... you're still watching the "best players"

By adding more professional environments, there are more opportunities for players to increase their skill level.I also think fears of talent dilution aren't as big a deal as some. 

Well we are into the second season and there is no sign of TWP “training anyone up”. Perez was going to train up grid iron players, but no sign of that. After entry Perez was going to China on the idea the country was full of undiscovered athletes. There are thousands of Canadian Rugby players being trained up but they are all being trained up for Rugby Union, Businesses cannot rely on poaching all their staff.

We do not have “enough” players of Superleague standard to expand Superleague, TWP signed Blake Wallace who didn’t make NRL, he played in the NSW & Queensland cup second competitions, therefore it’s absurd for people to pretend that somehow Perez, Noble and Rowley do not know this player pool exists and are missing alleged SL quality players therein. Business need adequate skills up to a standard.

Picking “the best” players up to the number we need does not work. How many times? Due to a lack of quality SL cut from 14 to 12 clubs but considered a cut to 10. If the players are not of a good enough quality they lose most of their games, they turn the fans and sponsors off and the TV company will not screen them. Their lack of skill means the business under performs and loses customers.

We have allowed Leigh London and Toulouse to be “more professional environments outside SL”, and yes, every other year they will develop a gem, but to stock the extra clubs for a transatlantic league needs 150-180 more quality players. Businesses need adequate and assured staff levels, training and recruitment

“Talent dilution is not a big deal”? See above when the SL went to 14 it diluted the talent and the lower clubs struggled badly. Businesses can't share staff, they need to strive to be the best. “Doing nothing for sure won't accomplish anything”. Don’t tell me tell Perez he’s the one who has done nothing to date and shows no sign of doing anything in the future..

You and the rest cannot stop blaming the other SL businesses, yet it's your owner and leader you should be having a pop at. He offers untold riches in 10 years time if Superleague will just give him "5-6" Superleague places and let him access "150-180" skilled players to staff these clubs. Not asking for much is he? It's quite ridiculous.......

And it's not a business, If Australia, NZ, PNG & the Pacific is full of talent why hasn't Perez gone there? I expect the usual insults to be the answer.........

[winnyason]

4 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Well we are into the second season and there is no sign of TWP “training anyone up”. Perez was going to train up grid iron players, but no sign of that. After entry Perez was going to China on the idea the country was full of undiscovered athletes. There are thousands of Canadian Rugby players being trained up but they are all being trained up for Rugby Union.

We do not have “enough” players of Superleague standard to expand Superleague, TWP signed Blake Wallace who didn’t make NRL, he played in the NSW & Queensland cup second competitions, therefore it’s absurd for people to pretend that somehow Perez, Noble and Rowley do not know this player pool exists and are missing alleged SL quality players therein.

Picking “the best” players up to the number we need does not work. How many times? Due to a lack of quality SL cut to 12 clubs but considered a cut to 10. If the players are not of a good enough quality they lose most of their games, they turn the fans off and the TV company will not screen them.

We have allowed Leigh London and Toulouse to be “more professional environments outside SL”, and yes, every other year they will develop a gem, but to stock the extra clubs for a transatlantic league needs 150-180 more quality players.

“Talent dilution is not a big deal”? See above when the SL went to 14 it diluted the talent and the lower clubs struggled badly.

“Doing nothing for sure won't accomplish anything”. Don’t tell me tell Perez he’s the one who has done nothing to date and shows no sign of doing anything in the future..

Your full of ######. 

There a untapped market in png and fiji. 

There not enough scouting of new Zealand in rugby league local clubs and rugby players who slipped through cracks. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, winnyason said:

Your full of ######. 

There a untapped market in png and fiji. 

There not enough scouting of new Zealand in rugby league local clubs and rugby players who slipped through cracks. 

 

Get real, "not enough scouting" Earth calling winnyson, Earth calling winnyson come in please!

NB. Those cracks must be bloody big, more like Chasms, judging by the size of those Kiwi's.