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19 minutes ago, RP London said:

There are certain things that you dont want to be too transparent about as it can undermine your "bargaining position" when it comes to the next round of bids or the next time you have to do something.. I totally understand that and I wouldnt expect that much transparency where it can harm your cause later.

however, there are a number of times when you wonder whether people dont want to disclose as it is a "bad deal" or its potentially embarrassing for the organisation.. but surely that has to be weighed up with the fact that in this day and age speculation and rumour flies around the internet and that can cause more embarrassment than the actual facts, and a bit of transparency can solve that. 

on other bits sometimes knowing that the information/deal will be made public will stop people doing something that is a bit daft as people will have the chance to know about it.. most people who dont want transparency on a subject normally have something to hide (eg they feel their pay is too high for the job they do but they are willing to take it (as we all would to be fair)). 

all of this of course does have to be tempered by the fact some people will never understand and see the headline and go off on one so you have to be careful (ie £300k seems an awful lot of money when you are not on it but to get a chief exec of any caliber you need to pay that sort of money, or more, whether you think he is the right caliber or not is a different matter)

Its a balancing act of where you can be transparent and where not to be but equally when the rumour mill starts and you are able to stop it then stop it with facts, the facts are unlikely to be worse than the rumours that happen, and frankly if they are then maybe you should take a hard look at yourself and the deal/decisions that are made.

I agree with all the above 100% and this is what puts us in the current position. However if we went to thee extreme as per post, do we think there would be genuine downside? Would there be any upside.

My personal view is that people want transparency so that they can use this information to bash the RFL in the main, so I am not sure how much real benefit it would bring. 

As you say, £300k isn't a stupid salary, but they know that and use it to bash the RFL. I suspect if they highlighted that they were investing £200k in training camps to get the England team ready for their World Cup campaign, instead of people looking at that as a positive development, they would refer to the 8 development officers they could have hired (a nonsense point made over and over by idiots). They want to know how much the Mushy Peas deal is worth so that they can belittle it I'm sure.

Even a record £200m Sky deal is dismissed as a terrible deal.

But, we get bashed for this anyway as people create their own narative, I'm not sure we have too much to lose and we may start to see some positive changes with transparency.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

My personal view is that people want transparency so that they can use this information to bash the RFL in the main, so I am not sure how much real benefit it would bring.

I think what's funny is that they don't need, want or require any information to bash the RFL up with cos they can make it up very well on their own, thank you very much! And I'm sure some of the same culprits are the same one's accusing journos of creating stories instead of reporting them.

Is this what they mean by fake news or does it only become that when it's about Donald Trump and he notices it?

Personally I like the idea of an imaginary story, with creative lies told about the characters involved whilst attacking those we disagree with for the tissue of falsehoods they come out with. Just another day on the forum for mine!

 

 

Edited by Oxford

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4 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I think what's funny is that they don't need, want or require any information to bash the RFL up with cos they can make it up very well on their own, thank you very much! And I'm sure some of the same culprits are the same one's accusing journos of creating stories instead of reporting them.

Is this what they mean by fake news or does it only become that when it's about Donald Trump and he notices it?

 

 

I found it interesting that the whole 9 v 3 vote thing came up after Hetherington kicked off, yet I don't recall seeing this reported at the time, certainly not widely. Even Rod Studd said on Twitter something along the lines of "maybe Hetherington wants us to highlight the 9 v 3 vote" - well yes, as journos maybe you should!!! 

Are the journos armed with info that they don't bother reporting to us?

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An example of an irrational rant, this time on Twitter from Nick Fozzard, ex player who was also a Commercial Director at Cas!

His list of issues includes:

1 - NO marketing/advertising.

2 - No leadership/charisma/personality.

3 - League structure is a farce.

4 - Celtic Crusaders debacle.

5 - Dropping GB was ridiculous and insulting.

6 - No Amateur game support.

7 - No communication with players.

8 - RFL CEO pay.

9 - Severance package? Who signed it off.

10 - Dropping the A team comp.

11 - Dual Reg contracts.

12 - Wembley has become an embarrassment - half full, no acknowledgement of a problem or push to sort it.

13 - Magic Weekend - what is its purpose - financially we must make a massive loss.

Plenty of the above is just absolute nonsense, and it is pretty typical.

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12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I found it interesting that the whole 9 v 3 vote thing came up after Hetherington kicked off, yet I don't recall seeing this reported at the time, certainly not widely. Even Rod Studd said on Twitter something along the lines of "maybe Hetherington wants us to highlight the 9 v 3 vote" - well yes, as journos maybe you should!!! 

Are the journos armed with info that they don't bother reporting to us?

Who brought the 9 - 3 up, Dave?

I don't recall it at the time either.

I don't know if journos have stuff they don't think is worth sharing but the line of a story always leads to stuff 'on the cuttingroom floor!'

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

An example of an irrational rant, this time on Twitter from Nick Fozzard, ex player who was also a Commercial Director at Cas!

His list of issues includes:

1 - NO marketing/advertising.

2 - No leadership/charisma/personality.

3 - League structure is a farce.

4 - Celtic Crusaders debacle.

5 - Dropping GB was ridiculous and insulting.

6 - No Amateur game support.

7 - No communication with players.

8 - RFL CEO pay.

9 - Severance package? Who signed it off.

10 - Dropping the A team comp.

11 - Dual Reg contracts.

12 - Wembley has become an embarrassment - half full, no acknowledgement of a problem or push to sort it.

13 - Magic Weekend - what is its purpose - financially we must make a massive loss.

Plenty of the above is just absolute nonsense, and it is pretty typical.

Half digested stuff makes good stories, questionable journalism, fantastic rants and brilliant threads but almost useless for finding out what's really going on.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

An example of an irrational rant, this time on Twitter from Nick Fozzard, ex player who was also a Commercial Director at Cas!

His list of issues includes:

1 - NO marketing/advertising.

2 - No leadership/charisma/personality.

3 - League structure is a farce.

4 - Celtic Crusaders debacle.

5 - Dropping GB was ridiculous and insulting.

6 - No Amateur game support.

7 - No communication with players.

8 - RFL CEO pay.

9 - Severance package? Who signed it off.

10 - Dropping the A team comp.

11 - Dual Reg contracts.

12 - Wembley has become an embarrassment - half full, no acknowledgement of a problem or push to sort it.

13 - Magic Weekend - what is its purpose - financially we must make a massive loss.

Plenty of the above is just absolute nonsense, and it is pretty typical.

If you had listened to Nick Fozzard's post match interviews during his playing days you would be amazed he could write that many words. Hallelujah for predictive text!

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37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

An example of an irrational rant, this time on Twitter from Nick Fozzard, ex player who was also a Commercial Director at Cas!

His list of issues includes:

1 - NO marketing/advertising.

2 - No leadership/charisma/personality.

3 - League structure is a farce.

4 - Celtic Crusaders debacle.

5 - Dropping GB was ridiculous and insulting.

6 - No Amateur game support.

7 - No communication with players.

8 - RFL CEO pay.

9 - Severance package? Who signed it off.

10 - Dropping the A team comp.

11 - Dual Reg contracts.

12 - Wembley has become an embarrassment - half full, no acknowledgement of a problem or push to sort it.

13 - Magic Weekend - what is its purpose - financially we must make a massive loss.

Plenty of the above is just absolute nonsense, and it is pretty typical.

    Why do you conclude that it is an irrational rant?  Are the views of an ex-player and someone who brought commercial income and sponsors into a professional club to be dismissed without any question? Should someone from the governing body,or Super League club owner not answer the points? Will they answer should the Players Union put the same points?

   It demonstrates that not just forum users actually have real issues and concerns,and those issues and concerns are ever-increasing around a whole range of topics.

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34 minutes ago, Scubby said:

If you had listened to Nick Fozzard's post match interviews during his playing days you would be amazed he could write that many words. Hallelujah for predictive text!

Actually I know Nick Fozzard quite well and your comment clearly shows that you don't.

It's one example of a tendency I've often noticed - that a significant proportion of Rugby League supporters either have no respect or very little respect for those who play the game.

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9 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Actually I know Nick Fozzard quite well and your comment clearly shows that you don't.

It's one example of a tendency I've often noticed - that a significant proportion of Rugby League supporters either have no respect or very little respect for those who play the game.

to be fair I think that was a joke... 

i'm not sure I would agree with your last point... I think people have huge respect for people who played the game... whether you respect them in what they do for a living afterwards is another matter, they should not just get your respect for something they did in another arena.. a good Rugby League player does not make a good anything else just because he was a good RL player.. it is what the person is like.. There have been many examples of people who are very good in one living and make an utter hash of a similar job in another industry let alone a totally different job. 

Edited by RP London
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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I agree with all the above 100% and this is what puts us in the current position. However if we went to thee extreme as per post, do we think there would be genuine downside? Would there be any upside.

My personal view is that people want transparency so that they can use this information to bash the RFL in the main, so I am not sure how much real benefit it would bring. 

As you say, £300k isn't a stupid salary, but they know that and use it to bash the RFL. I suspect if they highlighted that they were investing £200k in training camps to get the England team ready for their World Cup campaign, instead of people looking at that as a positive development, they would refer to the 8 development officers they could have hired (a nonsense point made over and over by idiots). They want to know how much the Mushy Peas deal is worth so that they can belittle it I'm sure.

Even a record £200m Sky deal is dismissed as a terrible deal.

But, we get bashed for this anyway as people create their own narative, I'm not sure we have too much to lose and we may start to see some positive changes with transparency.

I do see exactly where you are coming from, I am not sure if we have nothing to lose but we are probably quite close to that point.. 

Being completely transparent would be interesting and I do wonder whether this would make a difference because people will see exactly what you could have bought for that £200k for example what does it cost to actually employ a development officer for example.. equally it would allow journalists to have the "argument" with the fans and for other people to use actual facts to dispel such nonesence... at the moment people will say "there is no way it cost that much" with no grounding in any sort of fact so it becomes a hard argument.. 

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12 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Actually I know Nick Fozzard quite well and your comment clearly shows that you don't.

It's one example of a tendency I've often noticed - that a significant proportion of Rugby League supporters either have no respect or very little respect for those who play the game.

I did know Nick Fozzard as a teenager. He was a couple of years younger than me in age group RL in the Wakefield area. Luckily, back then he was quite an easy going guy and didn't have a humour bypass. I'm sure that is still the case.

Edited by Scubby
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21 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

    Why do you conclude that it is an irrational rant?  Are the views of an ex-player and someone who brought commercial income and sponsors into a professional club to be dismissed without any question? Should someone from the governing body,or Super League club owner not answer the points? Will they answer should the Players Union put the same points?

   It demonstrates that not just forum users actually have real issues and concerns,and those issues and concerns are ever-increasing around a whole range of topics.

They are irrational rants as most are simply not true. 

Rant first, fact check later is the order of things nowadays

Edited by Spidey
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44 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

    Why do you conclude that it is an irrational rant?  Are the views of an ex-player and someone who brought commercial income and sponsors into a professional club to be dismissed without any question? Should someone from the governing body,or Super League club owner not answer the points? Will they answer should the Players Union put the same points?

   It demonstrates that not just forum users actually have real issues and concerns,and those issues and concerns are ever-increasing around a whole range of topics.

There are a few reasons why I descrive it as irrational.

1 - some of it is just factually wrong. Eg. No marketing or advertising - we all spent the last month slating the ad they created, so there is some!

2 - using opinion based stuff to discredit the RFL is a bit silly, he may not like the structure, but that doesbt make it a farce, neither does him loving GB make it wrong - and why does he ignore that the RFL are bringing it back?

3 - nonsense points like Wembley only being half full. Suggesting there is no acknowledgement of the issues, despite Draper publicly discussing options other than Wembley and this being discussed in fans surveys.

4 - Magic weekend losing clubs a fortune. a ) i suspect he is wrong by some distance and b ) as a former Commercial Director wouldnt he know?

5 - no leadership personality - does he want Bobby Davro fronting the RFL? None of the giverning bodies have this.

Most of his points are not questions, or have been answered. Its just a rant.

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

5 - no leadership personality - does he want Bobby Davro fronting the RFL? None of the giverning bodies have this.

He would make a better impression than Rimmer :ph34r:

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41 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I did know Nick Fozzard as a teenager. He was a couple of years younger than me in age group RL in the Wakefield area. Luckily, back then he was quite an easy going guy and didn't have a humour bypass. I'm sure that is still the case.

I can confirm that he certainly does have a sense of humour.

But on the evidence of your post I'm not sure you'll be appearing at the Comedy Store any time soon.

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53 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Actually I know Nick Fozzard quite well and your comment clearly shows that you don't.

It's one example of a tendency I've often noticed - that a significant proportion of Rugby League supporters either have no respect or very little respect for those who play the game.

That isnt something I witness at all tbh.

Nick Fozzard was a very good RL player, I suspect better than pretty much everyone who posts here and I have very fond memories of him as an RL player at Wire.

That doesnt mean his opinion on marketing or ceo salaries is worth more than anyone elses.

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There are a few reasons why I descrive it as irrational.

1 - some of it is just factually wrong. Eg. No marketing or advertising - we all spent the last month slating the ad they created, so there is some!

2 - using opinion based stuff to discredit the RFL is a bit silly, he may not like the structure, but that doesbt make it a farce, neither does him loving GB make it wrong - and why does he ignore that the RFL are bringing it back?

3 - nonsense points like Wembley only being half full. Suggesting there is no acknowledgement of the issues, despite Draper publicly discussing options other than Wembley and this being discussed in fans surveys.

4 - Magic weekend losing clubs a fortune. a ) i suspect he is wrong by some distance and b ) as a former Commercial Director wouldnt he know?

5 - no leadership personality - does he want Bobby Davro fronting the RFL? None of the giverning bodies have this.

Most of his points are not questions, or have been answered. Its just a rant.

If we only ever published things that were entirely rational on this forum it would be much quieter than it is.

Actually, your point 4, about the Magic Weekend, is largely true.

The clubs make virtually nothing from it.

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2 hours ago, RP London said:

There are certain things that you dont want to be too transparent about as it can undermine your "bargaining position" when it comes to the next round of bids or the next time you have to do something.. I totally understand that and I wouldnt expect that much transparency where it can harm your cause later...

I dont think thats quite true. Ive been listening in to the AOB echo chamber EU evangelists club and it seems you do have to reveal your bargaining position when negotiating.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, RP London said:

I do see exactly where you are coming from, I am not sure if we have nothing to lose but we are probably quite close to that point.. 

Being completely transparent would be interesting and I do wonder whether this would make a difference because people will see exactly what you could have bought for that £200k for example what does it cost to actually employ a development officer for example.. equally it would allow journalists to have the "argument" with the fans and for other people to use actual facts to dispel such nonesence... at the moment people will say "there is no way it cost that much" with no grounding in any sort of fact so it becomes a hard argument.. 

Yeah its a funny one. I get bored of people asking for transparency when usually there is no real public interest. 

Interestingly many of these same fans lap up stuff from their clubs and will now celebrate SL being run by clubs despite these clubs working in the same way. Nobody announces commercial deals anymore.

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2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

If we only ever published things that were entirely rational on this forum it would be much quieter than it is.

Actually, your point 4, about the Magic Weekend, is largely true.

The clubs make virtually nothing from it.

Im not sure of your point. If irrational things are posted, they will get challenged.

Im also not sure of your point here Martyn. Fozzard said the clubs must lose a fortune. You say the clubs make virtually nothing from it. So Nick F is wrong? Cool, thats what I said.

A feature on something like that would be interesting Martyn (at least to me!). As an outsider I would look at the Sky deal, Host City partnerships, sponsorship deals and ticket sales and wonder how the game cant make any money from Magic. Can anybody delve into that?

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6 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I dont think thats quite true. Ive been listening in to the AOB echo chamber EU evangelists club and it seems you do have to reveal your bargaining position when negotiating.

 

 

Oi, ###### off with shoe-horning politics in here!!!

:biggrin:

Edit: that is a very tame word

Edited by Dave T

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11 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I can confirm that he certainly does have a sense of humour.

But on the evidence of your post I'm not sure you'll be appearing at the Comedy Store any time soon.

You do have a very warm and charming approach with people who will often be customers of yours Martyn.

Maybe you and Gary Hetherington do have some stuff in common after all!

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21 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I can confirm that he certainly does have a sense of humour.

But on the evidence of your post I'm not sure you'll be appearing at the Comedy Store any time soon.

in which case i am not sure you needed to defend him like that he would no doubt have seen the funny side of what was said..

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9 minutes ago, RP London said:

in which case i am not sure you needed to defend him like that he would no doubt have seen the funny side of what was said..

It's always good to see the funny side of things that are actually funny.

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