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When is someone going to sort the Saudis out?

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5 minutes ago, jacksy said:

When is someone going to sort the Saudis out?

It does demonstrate that the feigned concern about human rights is nonsense.

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9 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It does demonstrate that the feigned concern about human rights is nonsense.

Its often quite amazing how a sudden concern for human rights, gender equality or animal welfare can arise when connected to certain countries/groups.  

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4 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The first thing is that the Iranians themselves have to decide what their priorities are.

Is it to wage war, develop a nuclear bomb, or to do something for the good of their country?

If it's the first two, they are taking a massive risk.

If it's the latter, then they can expect to make quick progress.

Well they already decided building a bomb wasn't a priority hence agreeing the JCPOA. That's now been thrown back in their face by the US despite it being by far the most dangerous and risk-related issue. That is not sensible diplomacy for many reasons already alluded to on the US President thread; weakening the moderates being a clearly evident one - it certainly fuels your first point about exerting influence across the ME and reduces the ability to do something good for the country.

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6 hours ago, Niels said:

I think Israel would be able to deal with Iran on its own. Iran is having problems maintaining an infrastructure in Syria because of Israeli military supremacy. 

However I think morally all democracies should aid Israel if it was necessary. 

We are talking about an Iranian Government that still stones women to death and hangs gay people. There's no comparison between the two countries, especially if you are a woman or a minority. 

People will point to Gaza but the reaponsibility for blame there is mainly placed on Hamas. 

Hamas were elected in Gaza.

There are Jewish religious leaders in Israel who have spoken out in favour of the death penalty for homosexuals by the way.

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2 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Its often quite amazing how a sudden concern for human rights, gender equality or animal welfare can arise when connected to certain countries/groups.  

I brought up the treatment of women and Gay minorities in Iran as it is relevant to this thread. The alternative is to ignore them amd pretend it isnt happening which cannot be right. 

I have mentioned the same concerns  where relevant to threads about other countries.

If you want me to give an example then I don't like religious people in Israel making women sit at the back of the bus.

However there is a big difference to this and women being stoned in Iran.

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14 minutes ago, Niels said:

I brought up the treatment of women and Gay minorities in Iran as it is relevant to this thread. The alternative is to ignore them amd pretend it isnt happening which cannot be right. 

I have mentioned the same concerns  where relevant to threads about other countries.

If you want me to give an example then I don't like religious people in Israel making women sit at the back of the bus.

However there is a big difference to this and women being stoned in Iran.

You need to get your priorities right. I'd rather sit at the back of a bus than be shot dead for demonstrating.

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6 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

Hamas were elected in Gaza.

There are Jewish religious leaders in Israel who have spoken out in favour of the death penalty for homosexuals by the way.

Yes I understand both your points however:

Hamas were elected in 2006 and led a national unity government with the more secular Fatah. In 2007 they took sole control after violent confrontation which led to Fatah members being thrown off buildings. There have been no elections since.

There are some religious leaders in Israel that are very extreme.  Fortunately they are not anywhere near Government.

In Iran a religious extremist is the Supreme Leader. In Iran homosexuality is forbidden.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You can aid them if you like, I'll hold your coat and glasses. People who shoot at unarmed demonstrators with live ammunition have a very tenuous grasp of morality.

Iran shoot at unarmed demonstrators 

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3 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

So that makes Iran and Israel equal ?

Whataboutism.

It is irrelevent. 

Indeed, if not wanting an invasion of Iran is equated to being anti-semitic, it is things like this that feed into it.  There is not need to compare the two.  People are not demanding an invasion of Saudi Arabia (as they have not been told to).

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15 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Well they already decided building a bomb wasn't a priority hence agreeing the JCPOA. That's now been thrown back in their face by the US despite it being by far the most dangerous and risk-related issue. That is not sensible diplomacy for many reasons already alluded to on the US President thread; weakening the moderates being a clearly evident one - it certainly fuels your first point about exerting influence across the ME and reduces the ability to do something good for the country.

Building a bomb is still a priority for the theocratic rulers of Iran, but under the JCPOA they were prepared to defer its completion in return for what is effectively an enormous bribe.

I don't think it's wise to jump to conclusions about what they may or may not do now.

As we have seen with North Korea, what the pundits predict often turns out to be wrong.

But if the Iranians are dangerous, then they have to be dealt with, and not bought off.

Trump recognises that, whereas I don't think the European leaders do.

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2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Building a bomb is still a priority for the theocratic rulers of Iran, but under the JCPOA they were prepared to defer its completion in return for what is effectively an enormous bribe.

The program was stopped, JCPOA had provisions to continue beyond the schedule and carry on in perpetually and the bribe as you call in was Iran's own money.  

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8 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Building a bomb is still a priority for the theocratic rulers of Iran, but under the JCPOA they were prepared to defer its completion in return for what is effectively an enormous bribe.

I don't think it's wise to jump to conclusions about what they may or may not do now.

As we have seen with North Korea, what the pundits predict often turns out to be wrong.

But if the Iranians are dangerous, then they have to be dealt with, and not bought off.

Trump recognises that, whereas I don't think the European leaders do.

Again I repeat the question, how do you deal with Iran? And it’s my assumption you are jumping to conclusions about what the Iranian theocratic leaders want because your opinion is different to people who have actually been dealing with them; not the likes of Bolton, Trump and Pompeo.

And what do you think North Korea are going to be offered? A reach-around? Nope, a bribe. But I bet that gets dressed up as the best deal ever (if it actually gets followed through)...

Edited by GeordieSaint
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4 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

The program was stopped, JCPOA had provisions to continue beyond the schedule and carry on in perpetually and the bribe as you call in was Iran's own money.  

Iranian investments may have been frozen, but unfreezing them was still a bribe.

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9 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Again I repeat the question, how do you deal with Iran? And it’s my assumption you are jumping to conclusions about what the Iranian theocratic leaders want because your opinion is different to people who have actually been dealing with them; not the likes of Bolton, Trump and Pompeo.

Fortunately I don't have to deal with Iran.

But if I had to, I would take them at their word and in accordance with their previous and current behaviour, which is clearly aggressive and threatening, both internally within their own country and externally towards their neighbours.

Having said that, if dealing with them I would give them a get out in the form of tangible benefits for the Iranian people. As I have said already, they have a water crisis, which in reality is the biggest issue facing the country. I think the west could give them a lot of help in that regard.

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5 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Fortunately I don't have to deal with Iran.

But if I had to, I would take them at their word and in accordance with their previous and current behaviour, which is clearly aggressive and threatening, both internally within their own country and externally towards their neighbours.

So basically nothing other than attempt to isolate them; in other words force them down the route of developing a nuclear bomb resulting a nuclear arms race in the Middle East involving the Saudis, Turks, Emirates and probably the Bahrainians and Qataris as well. Great plan... 

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1 minute ago, GeordieSaint said:

So basically nothing other than attempt to isolate them; in other words force them down the route of developing a nuclear bomb resulting a nuclear arms race in the Middle East involving the Saudis, Turks, Emirates and probably the Bahrainians and Qataris as well. Great plan... 

Actually what I suggest is the opposite of isolating them.

It would be helping to achieve positive goals for their country while reducing the threat to their neighbours.

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15 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

The program was stopped, JCPOA had provisions to continue beyond the schedule and carry on in perpetually and the bribe as you call in was Iran's own money.  

I do wonder what some people think the North Koreans are going to be offered? A vacation at Mar-o-Lago once or twice a year?! 

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8 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I do wonder what some people think the North Koreans are going to be offered? A vacation at Mar-o-Lago once or twice a year?! 

We won't have to wait too long to find out.

You're obviously very impatient.

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46 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I do wonder what some people think the North Koreans are going to be offered? A vacation at Mar-o-Lago once or twice a year?! 

A sordid bribe obviously.  

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56 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I think the west could give them a lot of help in that regard.

Bribing them with water?

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49 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I do wonder what some people think the North Koreans are going to be offered? A vacation at Mar-o-Lago once or twice a year?! 

Recognition and respect. All they have ever wanted.

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1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Iranian investments may have been frozen, but unfreezing them was still a bribe.

Impressive.

For your birthday this year, I will not burgle your house.

What is the plan for dealing with Saudi Arabia? 

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