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2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

I do wonder what some people think the North Koreans are going to be offered? A vacation at Mar-o-Lago once or twice a year?! 

Exactly. What are the Yanks giving up if the North Koreans give up their nuclear weapons?

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3 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

Exactly. What are the Yanks giving up if the North Koreans give up their nuclear weapons?

A reduction of American forces in South Korea is probably one carrot.  Will Make the North happier, China very happy and keep a Trump promise of America first.  

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19 hours ago, jacksy said:

When is someone going to sort the Saudis out?

As soon as they run out of oil?

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4 hours ago, lucky 7 said:

Exactly. What are the Yanks giving up if the North Koreans give up their nuclear weapons?

It isn't just the US that doesn't want the North Koreans to be a nuclear power. Even China, their closet ally, has helped and played a large part in dissuading them. 

 

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11 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Iranian investments may have been frozen, but unfreezing them was still a bribe.

Martyn, every deal ever done can be viewed as a bribe if you've a mind to do so. If I go to the off-licence for a bottle of whisky, I ask the shopkeeper for a bottle of Black Label, say, and he asks me for £20. I hand him a £20 note and he gives me a bottle of BL. Did I bribe him with £20 to give me a bottle of BL? Did he bribe me with a bottle of BL to give him £20? Or was it just a trade deal?

 

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8 hours ago, Bearman said:

As soon as they run out of oil?

Many a true word spoken in jest.

 

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23 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

If that's what it takes?

Edited by jacksy

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4 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

50 odd shot dead in Jerusalem. Now tell me the State of Israel is a civilised nation.

People were not shot dead in Jerusalem Tyrone. 

This happened at the Gaza border. There was potential for a massacre of Israelis by terrorists which is why live fire was used. 

A lot of the dead killed there previously have been terrorists and it is likely to be the same this time.

Like you I don't like to think of innocent people being shot. Most of the innocent protestors are forced to go by Hamas. 

The more secular Fatah, which is based in the terrorities, do not advocate their own people to rush borders or fences as they know it will result in certain death.

 

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3 minutes ago, Niels said:

People were not shot dead in Jerusalem Tyrone. 

This happened at the Gaza border. There was potential for a massacre of Israelis by terrorists which is why live fire was used. 

A lot of the dead killed there previously have been terrorists and it is likely to be the same this time.

Like you I don't like to think of innocent people being shot. Most of the innocent protestors are forced to go by Hamas. 

The more secular Fatah, which is based in the terrorities, do not advocate their own people to rush borders or fences as they know it will result in certain death.

 

I think there’s an element of naivety to your  post. I have no doubt there were elements within that crowd out to hurt Israelis; using incendiary devices is always a good indication someone is out to kill. However, don’t underestimate how ruthless and brutal the IDF are; 55 killed and at least 2000 wounded. That’s not targeted; it’s indiscriminate and we call out the Russians, Syrians etc for much less.

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1 minute ago, GeordieSaint said:

I think there’s an element of naivety to your  post. I have no doubt there were elements within that crowd out to hurt Israelis; using incendiary devices is always a good indication someone is out to kill. However, don’t underestimate how ruthless and brutal the IDF are; 55 killed and at least 2000 wounded. That’s not targeted; it’s indiscriminate and we call out the Russians, Syrians etc for much less.

Do we know these figures to be accurate?  Have they been confirmed independently?  Were the dead those who were using incendiaries (if so, the response from Israel is not indiscriminate surely)?

I would imagine if we were surrounded by countries wanting to blow us to oblivion we would be ruthless too when incendiary devises are fired on to our territory, regardless of who is doing the firing.

It is tragic that Hamas is using people to further their own ends in this way, sending them to their deaths because Hamas will know the Israelis will not tolerate being attacked. 

  

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19 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Do we know these figures to be accurate?  Have they been confirmed independently?  Were the dead those who were using incendiaries (if so, the response from Israel is not indiscriminate surely)?

I would imagine if we were surrounded by countries wanting to blow us to oblivion we would be ruthless too when incendiary devises are fired on to our territory, regardless of who is doing the firing.

It is tragic that Hamas is using people to further their own ends in this way, sending them to their deaths because Hamas will know the Israelis will not tolerate being attacked. 

Do you know what an incidenary device is?  Usually homemade cocktails that throw up flames when they smash. You may have a few homemade grenades in there as well. Absolutely doesn’t warrant sustained sniper fire. The IDF rules of engagement are loose, disproportionate and indiscriminate; same as the last Gaza War.

I am not a Palestinian sympathiser; they are all as bad as each other but the reckless killing from the IDF of Palestinians does nothing but further breed hatred and give justification to organisations like Hamas. It’s wrong.

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3 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Do you know what an incidenary device is?  Usually homemade cocktails that throw up flames when they smash. You may have a few homemade grenades in there as well. Absolutely doesn’t warrant sustained sniper fire. The IDF rules of engagement are loose, disproportionate and indiscriminate; same as the last Gaza War.

I am not a Palestinian sympathiser; they are all as bad as each other but the reckless killing from the IDF of Palestinians does nothing but further breed hatred and give justification to organisations like Hamas. It’s wrong.

People are throwing stones and molotov cocktails.  There is big wall/fence/barbed wire in the middle.  How much danger are soldiers and Israelis actually in?  They have some of the most sophisticated surveillance equipment in the world, they could quite happily pick off the really bad guys (guns or actual rockets) from a mile away.  

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Still the american christian right wing is happy, as we are a step closer to armageddon.  Hurrah!

Just what the middle east needs is some more religious nutters.

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9 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

People are throwing stones and molotov cocktails.  There is big wall/fence/barbed wire in the middle.  How much danger are soldiers and Israelis actually in?  They have some of the most sophisticated surveillance equipment in the world, they could quite happily pick off the really bad guys (guns or actual rockets) from a mile away.  

That is exactly what they said they did though - picked off the really bad guys. 

The Israelis said guns were used by the protestors/Hamas (whichever was the case) as well as incendiaries and other general missiles.  The Israelis also used tear gas from drones.  I saw that on TV just now.  An Israeli chap on TV just now also made the valid point that there were thousands of these protestors, shouting about killing Jewish children once they had stormed the fence.  Seeing a mass like that, all intent on storming your border shooting guns and throwing incendiaries when there are families living 'a couple of football pitches away' (to quote the Israeli chap on TV just now) is not a protest you control with a polite request.  

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10 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

People are throwing stones and molotov cocktails.  There is big wall/fence/barbed wire in the middle.  How much danger are soldiers and Israelis actually in?  They have some of the most sophisticated surveillance equipment in the world, they could quite happily pick off the really bad guys (guns or actual rockets) from a mile away.  

There were 12 separate attempts by terror groups to infiltrate the border fence. The stated aims by Hamas are to kidnap soldiers or civilians and try to hold whole border communities hostage.

They do aim to identify and kill terrorists. Successfully too, as a high proportion of those killed are Hamas members. The Israelis are well aware that some of the protesters are forced there by Hamas - they stated that people would be treated as collaborators if they didn't march.

Fortunately, Hamas' attempts to spread the trouble to the other territories and East Jerusalem failed.

 

 

 

 

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What you are seeing in Israel is the result of the religious fundamentalists and the military having too much say in the politics of the nation. Does that remind you of any of the other neighbouring nations ?

 

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9 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Do you know what an incidenary device is?  Usually homemade cocktails that throw up flames when they smash. You may have a few homemade grenades in there as well. Absolutely doesn’t warrant sustained sniper fire. The IDF rules of engagement are loose, disproportionate and indiscriminate; same as the last Gaza War.

I am not a Palestinian sympathiser; they are all as bad as each other but the reckless killing from the IDF of Palestinians does nothing but further breed hatred and give justification to organisations like Hamas. It’s wrong.

I agree, lets me and you have a duel. I'll have the M-16, you can have the bottle of petrol and some stones.

When all you have is an hammer every problem becomes a nail. The Israelis have learnt nothing from history.

Amritsar, Sharpville, and Bloody Sunday mean nothing to them

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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9 hours ago, Niels said:

People were not shot dead in Jerusalem Tyrone. 

This happened at the Gaza border. There was potential for a massacre of Israelis by terrorists which is why live fire was used. 

A lot of the dead killed there previously have been terrorists and it is likely to be the same this time.

Like you I don't like to think of innocent people being shot. Most of the innocent protestors are forced to go by Hamas. 

The more secular Fatah, which is based in the terrorities, do not advocate their own people to rush borders or fences as they know it will result in certain death.

 

I meant Gaza.

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Choosing a side is popular on the thread.

The same could be done for Bloody Sunday.  The more relevant question is whether Bloody Sunday was better for the PIRA or British rule in Northern Ireland.

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10 minutes ago, mickhornet said:

An 8 month old baby died,absolute scandal.

One of the 'really bad guys' ((C) Saintslass).

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