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17 minutes ago, TheDuke said:

Is the ground at York going to have a running track? I do hope not 

No

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1 hour ago, TheDuke said:

Is the ground at York going to have a running track? I do hope not 

No. Definitely not. 

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 Work is  progressing well at  the  York  community  stadium 

Dcg5pmSWsAAGqJV.jpg

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2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

I'm shocked that Leeds are needing a mortgage to rebuild the ground,  it actually make me realise how lucky Saints are to have a new stadium without any outside debt as it was paid for by the Knowsley road sale plus the board of directors.

Living where I do now I don't get to away games and only seen Saints new ground on TV , but I really like the look of it 

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8 hours ago, Tre Cool said:

Wakey and Cas really should be sharing that stadium.  

Although it seems blindingly obvious to anyone outside the Wakefield District that the 2 (or 3) clubs should share a stadium, there are reasons why it has never happened.

1. There is no-one to pay for such a stadium. The local council will not help to fund any stadium as they feel they would have to do the same for all 3 clubs. One of the clubs has always been in a more dominant position and has refused to compromise. Back at the start of SL, only Trinity were prepared to accept the 'Calder' merger option. (The M word is also a major deterrent to any shared stadium.

2. Castleford would not play in a stadium outside Castleford. The town's identity with the RL club is what keeps it going. 8000 crowds from a 40 000 population is pretty impressive (Featherstone likewise). Normanton was mooted at one point, which is between the 3 clubs (see point 1) and the seemingly now dead-end project at Newmarket is not in the City of Wakefield and is pretty much dead centre between the current 2 grounds. It would also have been a community stadium and not owned by either club, both could have been equal tenants. Castleford refused any deal.

3. Wakefield would not play in a stadium in Castleford. For similar reasons to that above, it would be the end of the club. The current project in Castleford would be privately owned by Castleford RLFC, gifted to them as part of the 5 towns development.Trinity would be tenants of Castleford, who would have total control over its use. Could you imagine if Wigan were kicked out of the DW and then decided to pay rent to play at St. Helens?

Hopefully the problem will be solved in the next few years with each club having its own small stadium. The most optimistic fans see Cas' stadium being funded by the 5 towns project and they can then sell off Wheldon Road to become very strong financially and Belle Vue will be redeveloped using funding from the Newmarket development. At present, neither of these is set in concrete and the saga continues...

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7 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Although it seems blindingly obvious to anyone outside the Wakefield District that the 2 (or 3) clubs should share a stadium, there are reasons why it has never happened.

1. There is no-one to pay for such a stadium. The local council will not help to fund any stadium as they feel they would have to do the same for all 3 clubs. One of the clubs has always been in a more dominant position and has refused to compromise. Back at the start of SL, only Trinity were prepared to accept the 'Calder' merger option. (The M word is also a major deterrent to any shared stadium.

2. Castleford would not play in a stadium outside Castleford. The town's identity with the RL club is what keeps it going. 8000 crowds from a 40 000 population is pretty impressive (Featherstone likewise). Normanton was mooted at one point, which is between the 3 clubs (see point 1) and the seemingly now dead-end project at Newmarket is not in the City of Wakefield and is pretty much dead centre between the current 2 grounds. It would also have been a community stadium and not owned by either club, both could have been equal tenants. Castleford refused any deal.

3. Wakefield would not play in a stadium in Castleford. For similar reasons to that above, it would be the end of the club. The current project in Castleford would be privately owned by Castleford RLFC, gifted to them as part of the 5 towns development.Trinity would be tenants of Castleford, who would have total control over its use. Could you imagine if Wigan were kicked out of the DW and then decided to pay rent to play at St. Helens?

Hopefully the problem will be solved in the next few years with each club having its own small stadium. The most optimistic fans see Cas' stadium being funded by the 5 towns project and they can then sell off Wheldon Road to become very strong financially and Belle Vue will be redeveloped using funding from the Newmarket development. At present, neither of these is set in concrete and the saga continues...

All valid points and living amongst many Wakey/Cas fans I'll say the same here as I do to them - the clubs die anyway if they don't get this sorted asap. So the choice is really: 

- They somehow both manage to build their own new stadiums in the near future (Not going to happen) 

- They do nothing and eventually (and long overdue) the League says you don't meet the requirements, off you pop to the Championship - crowds dwindle and after not too long they become a very average lower league teams. 

- They both recognise that the only really viable option is a shared ground and get the ball rolling. A shared ground never means a merger (unless two sides recognise they'd be stronger together) so that shouldn't be a concern. 

It would be terrible for the area to lose these 2 SL clubs, not only for themselves and the fans but also the huge impact I think that would have on the community game too. I'm reluctant to say I hope common sense prevails because I know it's more complex than that, but seriously this needs sorting because time is well and truly up and everyone knows what needs to happen - let's just hope it does before it's too late.....

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9 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

All valid points and living amongst many Wakey/Cas fans I'll say the same here as I do to them - the clubs die anyway if they don't get this sorted asap. So the choice is really: 

- They somehow both manage to build their own new stadiums in the near future (Not going to happen) 

- They do nothing and eventually (and long overdue) the League says you don't meet the requirements, off you pop to the Championship - crowds dwindle and after not too long they become a very average lower league teams. 

- They both recognise that the only really viable option is a shared ground and get the ball rolling. A shared ground never means a merger (unless two sides recognise they'd be stronger together) so that shouldn't be a concern. 

It would be terrible for the area to lose these 2 SL clubs, not only for themselves and the fans but also the huge impact I think that would have on the community game too. I'm reluctant to say I hope common sense prevails because I know it's more complex than that, but seriously this needs sorting because time is well and truly up and everyone knows what needs to happen - let's just hope it does before it's too late.....

So, where will this joint stadium be built and who's going to pay for it?

It's at least 10 years too late for a new project from scratch. The HMS Common Sense has sailed. This is now the non-starter. There is absolutely zero political will from WMDC for such a solution. 

The die is cast. Each club gets its own stadium in the very near future or they start their painful journey to extinction. If only one club gets one built, the other's demise would be even more rapid. 

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15 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

yes , but LCC brokered the deal with a major finance company to build the three stands for the Rugby club and YCC and its getting paid off as a mortgage and I think the main reason the council got involved was that they didn't want to lose test cricket for the city . Yes Caddick still owns the club and I think doing the rebuild 

Sounds a very reasonable hypothesis.

Looking at the re-build on TV I can't work out just what is planned - is the intention to have a two layer South stand with a seating element to it? It will certainly be a fine ground when completed.

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2 minutes ago, Bulliac said:

Sounds a very reasonable hypothesis.

Looking at the re-build on TV I can't work out just what is planned - is the intention to have a two layer South stand with a seating element to it? It will certainly be a fine ground when completed.

Yes,the South Stand will have a seating element to it.

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1 hour ago, Wholly Trinity said:

So, where will this joint stadium be built and who's going to pay for it?

It's at least 10 years too late for a new project from scratch. The HMS Common Sense has sailed. This is now the non-starter. There is absolutely zero political will from WMDC for such a solution. 

The die is cast. Each club gets its own stadium in the very near future or they start their painful journey to extinction. If only one club gets one built, the other's demise would be even more rapid. 

I'm not disputing that - I agree to be honest that it's all very late in the day. I don't think it's completely inconceivable however, if something was put on the table in the next 6 months. The biggest obstacle (amongst other things) from what I can gather was that in the past they couldn't get both clubs to agree to it - at this stage it would be suicide for them both not to work something out. In terms of who funds it, i'd hope that between the two clubs and a sponsorship deal for the stadium, that should give them the majority of the funding. The location obviously needs to be somewhere between the two - I know the Normanton idea never went any further a few years back but again, if we're talking about new discussions I don't know why that wouldn't be an option? 

Edited by hunsletgreenandgold

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24 minutes ago, Bulliac said:

Sounds a very reasonable hypothesis.

Looking at the re-build on TV I can't work out just what is planned - is the intention to have a two layer South stand with a seating element to it? It will certainly be a fine ground when completed.

South Stand when complete: 

image.png.4932a66a3ef88eb38856d35cdd0c52cc.png

 

North stand that will be joint with Cricket stand when complete: 

image.png.98c19c4d43bd1d784a2d3a5e32da270c.png

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1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I'm not disputing that - I agree to be honest that it's all very late in the day. I don't think it's completely inconceivable however, if something was put on the table in the next 6 months. The biggest obstacle (amongst other things) from what I can gather was that in the past they couldn't get both clubs to agree to it - at this stage it would be suicide for them both not to work something out. In terms of who funds it, i'd hope that between the two clubs and a sponsorship deal for the stadium, that should give them the majority of the funding. The location obviously needs to be somewhere between the two - I know the Normanton idea never went any further a few years back but again, if we're talking about new discussions I don't know why they wouldn't be an option? 

Both clubs currently have agreements in place to fund their respective stadiums and are still pursuing those targets. Neither project has ever reached a final dead end nor a start to construction. At what point do both clubs decide simultaneously to abandon these plans and start a new joint project, which has no better guarantee of success?

Perhaps if there were a 3rd party, such as WMDC or the RFL, pushing for such a solution, and had plans for location and finance in place, then heads could be knocked together, but no such scenario exists. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Both clubs currently have agreements in place to fund their respective stadiums and are still pursuing those targets. Neither project has ever reached a final dead end nor a start to construction. At what point do both clubs decide simultaneously to abandon these plans and start a new joint project, which has no better guarantee of success?

Perhaps if there were a 3rd party, such as WMDC or the RFL, pushing for such a solution, and had plans for location and finance in place, then heads could be knocked together, but no such scenario exists. 

 

That's the frustration though - let's be honest, neither really have any proper agreement in place for their respective new stadiums. What they're actually doing is just enough to appease the powers that be and stop the immediate action been that would be taken if they didn't have any 'plans' in place. Cas arguably have something a bit more viable but still seems a million miles away. I don't think either lose much by abandoning their current plans to be honest. 

It has to have a better chance of success if it was a joint venture because the risk is also doubled. Wherever the location could be a agreed upon the local council will have to be involved to an extent in any case, even if it's not financially. The demise of two historic clubs shouldn't and isn't in the hands of WMDC or any other council - the clubs need to drive this forward and then once they show a united front and commit to it (financially) themselves, other backers will take it seriously and the finance will come. 

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12 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

That's the frustration though - let's be honest, neither really have any proper agreement in place for their respective new stadiums. What they're actually doing is just enough to appease the powers that be and stop the immediate action been that would be taken if they didn't have any 'plans' in place. Cas arguably have something a bit more viable but still seems a million miles away. I don't think either lose much by abandoning their current plans to be honest. 

It has to have a better chance of success if it was a joint venture because the risk is also doubled. Wherever the location could be a agreed upon the local council will have to be involved to an extent in any case, even if it's not financially. The demise of two historic clubs shouldn't and isn't in the hands of WMDC or any other council - the clubs need to drive this forward and then once they show a united front and commit to it (financially) themselves, other backers will take it seriously and the finance will come. 

Both clubs have legally binding s.106 undertakings with developers to finance the stadium builds. The Wakefield one coming after a public inquiry and SoS decision. These are not pretend agreements made up by the clubs to appease the RFL. 

That the developers are seeking to delay or avoid their responsibilities combined with WMDC's reluctance or inability to enforce the action means we are in the current impasse. 

The idea that the 2 clubs coming together would by some miracle or magic create a stadium is real cloud cuckoo stuff. Neither club has any money to commit (financially) to any joint stadium. In theory, Cas could sell their stadium, but once the mortgage is paid off, not much would be left. As with most other new stadiums, they need funding from an enabling development (which they have) and/or support from local government. 

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17 hours ago, TheDuke said:

Is the ground at York going to have a running track? I do hope not 

A brand new £1.5m athletics track and facilities were opened at Heslington nearly two years ago as part of this deal. From what I hear its doing very well!

The crane moved on site today to start the East Stand build. Nice shot of the Minster on the horizon! :D 

 

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1 hour ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Both clubs have legally binding s.106 undertakings with developers to finance the stadium builds. The Wakefield one coming after a public inquiry and SoS decision. These are not pretend agreements made up by the clubs to appease the RFL. 

That the developers are seeking to delay or avoid their responsibilities combined with WMDC's reluctance or inability to enforce the action means we are in the current impasse. 

The idea that the 2 clubs coming together would by some miracle or magic create a stadium is real cloud cuckoo stuff. Neither club has any money to commit (financially) to any joint stadium. In theory, Cas could sell their stadium, but once the mortgage is paid off, not much would be left. As with most other new stadiums, they need funding from an enabling development (which they have) and/or support from local government. 

I'll accept you're a lot closer to this than I've been - just seems crazy that for all these 'agreements' that are seemingly in place, nothing is actually happening and indeed not likely to, at least for one of the clubs. 

In your opinion, who's to blame for where this mess currently stands? ( I assume you're better placed to talk about the Wakey situation than Cas) - is it the Club, developers, council? I'm sure there's elements from all three and possibly others but the current stalemate must be getting pushed by one side particularly?

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Super greed should introduce a rule whereby any club in the top flight has to meet certain criteria. Grounds been one of them 😂 

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4 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I'll accept you're a lot closer to this than I've been - just seems crazy that for all these 'agreements' that are seemingly in place, nothing is actually happening and indeed not likely to, at least for one of the clubs. 

In your opinion, who's to blame for where this mess currently stands? ( I assume you're better placed to talk about the Wakey situation than Cas) - is it the Club, developers, council? I'm sure there's elements from all three and possibly others but the current stalemate must be getting pushed by one side particularly?

The club for not taking the necessary steps over the course of the last 40 years to make baby upgrades on BV (when they owned it), the developer in the case of Newmarket who after getting the land taking out of greenbelt to develop are holding out until Trinity go pop so they need for a stadium goes out of the window and a local authority who, at best, have been incompetent in their handling of this fantastc opportunity to upgrade sports facilities in the city or, at worst, have been complicit in the whole saga.

 

Something seems to be happening with BV although given the past pretty much everyone remains sceptical. 

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17 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Although it seems blindingly obvious to anyone outside the Wakefield District that the 2 (or 3) clubs should share a stadium, there are reasons why it has never happened.

1. There is no-one to pay for such a stadium. The local council will not help to fund any stadium as they feel they would have to do the same for all 3 clubs. One of the clubs has always been in a more dominant position and has refused to compromise. Back at the start of SL, only Trinity were prepared to accept the 'Calder' merger option. (The M word is also a major deterrent to any shared stadium.

2. Castleford would not play in a stadium outside Castleford. The town's identity with the RL club is what keeps it going. 8000 crowds from a 40 000 population is pretty impressive (Featherstone likewise). Normanton was mooted at one point, which is between the 3 clubs (see point 1) and the seemingly now dead-end project at Newmarket is not in the City of Wakefield and is pretty much dead centre between the current 2 grounds. It would also have been a community stadium and not owned by either club, both could have been equal tenants. Castleford refused any deal.

3. Wakefield would not play in a stadium in Castleford. For similar reasons to that above, it would be the end of the club. The current project in Castleford would be privately owned by Castleford RLFC, gifted to them as part of the 5 towns development.Trinity would be tenants of Castleford, who would have total control over its use. Could you imagine if Wigan were kicked out of the DW and then decided to pay rent to play at St. Helens?

Hopefully the problem will be solved in the next few years with each club having its own small stadium. The most optimistic fans see Cas' stadium being funded by the 5 towns project and they can then sell off Wheldon Road to become very strong financially and Belle Vue will be redeveloped using funding from the Newmarket development. At present, neither of these is set in concrete and the saga continues...

I very much doubt selling WR will make Cas strong financially (or at least not medium to long term). Most of what they would realise from the sale would have to be used to pay off their 'debts' to the Fultons. They would then also need to source training facilities.

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In 1997 at a Castleford match I was handed a leaflet outlining proposals to build a new ground in Whitwood. I stil have the damn thing somewhere. We are no further along, even though my fellow Cas fans get excited every time they see a construction worker walking round Glasshoughton wearing a hi vis vest and a hat hard on ;)

The plans for a new stadium are just that - plans. It's all quiet on that front, it doesn't matter how many planning applications are passed or amendments made to the current junction, very little has progressed, everything has gone quiet and even the company rep who was updating us on the Cas forum on the new stadium hasn't said anything since 2016 I believe.

I've said it many times before, I think both clubs should sit down together and discuss a new joint stadium. I know we can't magic a new ground up out of nowhere, neither club is flash with cash, but surely with the full support of the council we'd be in a better place to see some progress. We are talking about 2 clubs, one averaging 5k and the other 8k (ish), with one club owning their current ground which could be used as part of any deal. You see non league football clubs in the 6th and 7th tiers of the football pyramid managing to build new stadiums, even though their crowds and budgets must be a fraction of Super League clubs

For those who think the clubs wouldn't survive if they moved out of their current areas, I believe a new stadium near the new police headquarters in Normanton would suit both clubs.

From The Jungle to the proposed new stadium, it's 2.1 miles. From Belle Vue to the proposed new Wakefield stadium near the M1, it's 5.5 miles. If a new ground could somehow be built in Normanton, it would be 4.0 miles (a mere extra 1.9miles) from the Jungle, and 5.0 miles from Belle Vue (half a mile less than the distance to the proposed new ground).

I don't think either club will go down that route though. But nor do I think either stadium will be built anytime soon.

Edited by AB Knight

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57 minutes ago, AB Knight said:

From The Jungle to the proposed new stadium, it's 2.1 miles. From Belle Vue to the proposed new Wakefield stadium near the M1, it's 5.5 miles. If a new ground could somehow be built in Normanton, it would be 4.0 miles (a mere extra 1.9miles) from the Jungle, and 5.0 miles from Belle Vue (half a mile less than the distance to the proposed new ground).

I don't think either club will go down that route though. But nor do I think either stadium will be built anytime soon.

Am I missing something or are Wakefield no longer looking at rebuilding at Belle Vue? I'm not saying that it's definitely going to happen but I thought the latest plan was to ground share next season and move back into a redeveloped Belle Vue the year after.

https://www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/wakefield-trinity-latest-club-to-stay-in-city-after-misunderstanding-1-8924186

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/42459204

Edited by fevtom

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3 minutes ago, AB Knight said:

In 1997 at a Castleford match I was handed a leaflet outlining proposals to build a new ground in Whitwood. I stil have the damn thing somewhere. We are no further along, even though my fellow Cas fans get excited every time they see a construction worker walking round Glasshoughton wearing a hi vis vest and a hat hard on ;)

The plans for a new stadium are just that - plans. It's all quiet on that front, it doesn't matter how many planning applications are passed or amendments made to the current junction, very little has progressed, everything has gone quiet and even the company rep who was updating us on the Cas forum on the new stadium hasn't said anything since 2016 I believe.

I've said it many times before, I think both clubs should sit down together and discuss a new joint stadium. I know we can't magic a new ground up out of nowhere, neither club is flash with cash, but surely with the full support of the council we'd be in a better place to see some progress. We are talking about 2 clubs, one averaging 5k and the other 8k (ish), with one club owning their current ground which could be used as part of any deal. You see non league football clubs in the 6th and 7th tiers of the football pyramid managing to build new stadiums, even though their crowds and budgets must be a fraction of Super League clubs

For those who think the clubs wouldn't survive if they moved out of their current areas, I believe a new stadium near the new police headquarters in Normanton would suit both clubs.

From The Jungle to the proposed new stadium, it's 2.1 miles. From Belle Vue to the proposed new Wakefield stadium near the M1, it's 5.5 miles. If a new ground could somehow be built in Normanton, it would be 4.0 miles (a mere extra 1.9miles) from the Jungle, and 5.0 miles from Belle Vue (half a mile less than the distance to the proposed new ground).

I don't think either club will go down that route though. But nor do I think either stadium will be built anytime soon.

I think the real problem with a joint new ground is that unless its in one of the two places (or 3 if we include Fev) it will be stuck out by itself. BV and Wheldon Road are suburban grounds with a good amount of stuff nearby already (pubs, eateries etc.) as well as of course the town centres themselves, which makes a large walk-up crowd possible and improves accessibility from public transport etc. Headingley is very similar and its also one of the reasons Newmarket would have been terrible. Unless its something on the scale of the Etihad complex in Manchester, a joint stadium could become a lame duck like Salford's ground. 

The location for Castleford's new ground is ideal, as ever it just needs building - either that or just rebuild Wheldon road bit by bit. For me, Wakefield either need to rebuild Belle Vue as per the latest plans, or look at other ventures with say either Wakefield Hockey club at college grove, Ossett United or even Sandal RU.

 

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8 hours ago, fevtom said:

Am I missing something or are Wakefield no longer looking at rebuilding at Belle Vue? I'm not saying that it's definitely going to happen but I thought the latest plan was to ground share next season and move back into a redeveloped Belle Vue the year after.

https://www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/wakefield-trinity-latest-club-to-stay-in-city-after-misunderstanding-1-8924186

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/42459204

Still up in the air, the club are beholden to 2 developers and a LA in terms of whether anything will get built. We get the nods and the winks every year around earlier May when politicians want something then they disappear for another 12 months.  Supposedly there was a meeting this week to discuss the project but nothing has come out of that so far. 

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