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Michael Gledhill

League restructure plans / TV money (merged threads)

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19 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Possibly but I think it's more likely to be the other way around and the money the l1 clubs and championship clubs get is money sky pay for SL and the other rights are just thrown in (if we are being generous we could argue it' for the 8s but they are generally less popular than a standard SL game)

As you say they have said little about the Toronto or Bradford which seems odd if they really are paying what adds up to a couple of million a year for rights they don't show but then let others show.

This is where I think/hope/really want to be the reason why Lenagan wants control. A paid for streaming service for the championship and league one that can then be used as leverage for the additional SL rights (by which I mean Les Catalans, Toronto, New York and Toulouse) from sky in the UK and is the OTT service as just launched for the rest of the world. I.e an OTT service with championship and L1 games in the UK and 2 Sky SL games plus the 4 overseas teams per week geoblocked in the UK but available overseas. Then if sky could either take this OTT service as it's own RL channel allowing it to be sold in the UK with a cut to sky or they pay a premium for that to keep RL exclusive to Sky sports and get the extra games. 

That's the only reason I can guess lenegan wants control of the lower leagues. As part of an RL OTT product. 

Otherwise I can't understand why we wants control of something he doesn't value or want to do anything with.

sorry scotchy ignorant question alert but in my world OTT stands for "over the top"... what does it stand for in the tech/tv/internet world?

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2 minutes ago, RP London said:

sorry scotchy ignorant question alert but in my world OTT stands for "over the top"... what does it stand for in the tech/tv/internet world?

the same. Its used to describe the provider distributing the content directly to the consumer, bypassing the usual platforms like Satellite/Cable/broadcasters, so things like Netflix or in sport the NFL gamepass or NRL app

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5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

the same. Its used to describe the provider distributing the content directly to the consumer, bypassing the usual platforms like Satellite/Cable/broadcasters, so things like Netflix or in sport the NFL gamepass or NRL app

cheers i get it now... sort of 

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On 15/05/2018 at 12:38 PM, Spidey said:

Good luck to them. Hopefully it’s is genuine solidarity and purpose, and not cutting off our nose to spite your face. 

The last time the Championship was televised it was for no income on Premier Sports, it would have to be a sizable shift in the market to get income for all the clubs greater than what they currently get from the SL TV Deal. If they do go it alone as it doesn’t work out I hope the split from the top tier isn’t permanent as they will need help

Comparing Apples and Oranges there.

Last time the Championship was on TV, there was a £300k salary cap and it was strictly semi-pro.

The vibrant competition we see now has 4 full time clubs, 1 almost full time and with Bradford next year 5 + 1 almost full time. Not to mention the truly international flavour of the competition.

The standard of the competition and it's potential attractiveness to broadcast partners is significantly higher than 4 years ago.

The truth is that until the end of the current contract, we've no idea what the championship is worth.

To say that it's worth less than what Sky pay is just as much wild speculation as saying it's worth £20m.

Edited by David Shepherd

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7 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

Comparing Apples and Oranges there.

Last time the Championship was on TV, there was a £300k salary cap and it was strictly semi-pro.

The vibrant competition we see now has 4 full time clubs, 1 almost full time and with Bradford next year 5 + 1 almost full time. Not to mention the truly international flavour of the competition.

The standard of the competition and it's potential attractiveness to broadcast partners is significantly higher than 4 years ago.

The truth is that until the end of the current contract, we've no idea what the championship is worth.

To say that it's worth less than what Sky pay is just as much wild speculation as saying it's worth £20m.

How do the attendances compare now to that time?

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1 minute ago, David Shepherd said:

I'm no statto, but I know Leigh and Fev's are up.

I appreciate that standards have risen, but I am not sure that is particularly important to a broadcaster.  For them, it would be is there a clamour to see the league.  I would question there is much overwhelming there is.  I suspect it is only about half the teams in Super League that are really of much worth to a broadcaster.  The rest are suitable for filler and there are plenty of possible fillers out there. 

If games are approaching SL levels, there is an argument.  Until then, I do not think broadcasters would be interested in spending any resources.

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11 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I appreciate that standards have risen, but I am not sure that is particularly important to a broadcaster.  For them, it would be is there a clamour to see the league.  I would question there is much overwhelming there is.  I suspect it is only about half the teams in Super League that are really of much worth to a broadcaster.  The rest are suitable for filler and there are plenty of possible fillers out there. 

If games are approaching SL levels, there is an argument.  Until then, I do not think broadcasters would be interested in spending any resources.

I don't know how attractive the competition is to a broadcaster.  The point I was making is that no one knows except Sky, BT et al.

Suggesting that it's not attractive is exactly the same kind of speculation as suggesting it is attractive. We simply have no clue until the next TV deal is announced.

 

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9 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

I don't know how attractive the competition is to a broadcaster.  The point I was making is that no one knows except Sky, BT et al.

Suggesting that it's not attractive is exactly the same kind of speculation as suggesting it is attractive. We simply have no clue until the next TV deal is announced.

It is speculation. 

However, you have argued that the competition would be substantially more attractive than last time it was broadcast.  That attendances have not rocketed suggests that that is not the case.

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3 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

I don't know how attractive the competition is to a broadcaster.  The point I was making is that no one knows except Sky, BT et al.

Suggesting that it's not attractive is exactly the same kind of speculation as suggesting it is attractive. We simply have no clue until the next TV deal is announced.

 

Its not really speculative tbh. Even when giving the rights away for free the only interested party was Premier Sports. And going back 20 years, to the days of the Association of Premiership Clubs under Bob McDermott (IIRC), the teams outside SL took a payment to opt out of the SL broadcast deal and be free to find their own. Couldn't find anyone interested. 

The evidence is pretty conclusive. 

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2 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Its not really speculative tbh. Even when giving the rights away for free the only interested party was Premier Sports. And going back 20 years, to the days of the Association of Premiership Clubs under Bob McDermott (IIRC), the teams outside SL took a payment to opt out of the SL broadcast deal and be free to find their own. Couldn't find anyone interested. 

The evidence is pretty conclusive. 

Plus sky have them, but dont show them, which doesnt really indicate that anyone is desperately looking to pay for them in the next few years.

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19 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Its not really speculative tbh. Even when giving the rights away for free the only interested party was Premier Sports. And going back 20 years, to the days of the Association of Premiership Clubs under Bob McDermott (IIRC), the teams outside SL took a payment to opt out of the SL broadcast deal and be free to find their own. Couldn't find anyone interested. 

The evidence is pretty conclusive. 

Is it though?  I'm not sure why a 20 year old situation is in any way relevant to 2018, or indeed the deal that was secured by a vastly different competition 5 years ago.  A rough bag of a fag packet calculation looks like the championship presently get north of £2.75m a year for signing those rights away.

Regardless of the circumstances, that's what they are worth right now.  What they'll be worth when the next deal comes round, neither you or I have a clue.

It's only non speculative because it fits with how you see things.

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1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

Is it though?  I'm not sure why a 20 year old situation is in any way relevant to 2018, or indeed the deal that was secured by a vastly different competition 5 years ago.  A rough bag of a fag packet calculation looks like the championship presently get north of £2.75m a year for signing those rights away.

Regardless of the circumstances, that's what they are worth right now.  What they'll be worth when the next deal comes round, neither you or I have a clue.

It's only non speculative because it fits with how you see things.

Until two years ago the C/L1 rights were worth nothing. Zip. Nada. They were given away for free to Premier Sports, a channel that most people in this country had never heard of.

I don't for one minute believe Sky pay £2.75m a year for Championship rights. I think they pay an overall figure for SL and Challenge Cup games, and get half a dozen Championship games thrown in for good measure. The RFL then told the SL clubs they'd get £1.8million a year, which more or less covers the salary cap (albeit some of them don't even manage to spend that!) plus of course a one-off payment of £300,000, if they agreed to the deal there and then. Don't forget, the SL clubs weren't shown a breakdown of the TV contract until a year later. The fact so many of them immediately leapt to sign shows just how desperate they were for the bribe, sorry, up front instalment.

This gave the RFL the opportunity to funnel £2.75m or whatever it is into the Championship, knowing this was the only possible way of giving their new structure even a vague chance of success. Why did they do this? Because Nigel Wood's entire power base was the lower end SL clubs and the Championship - he needed them to stay in his job. And it worked, for a time.

As far as Sky are concerned, they're paying X amount per year for SL. How the RFL want to sell that to the clubs and fans is of no interest to Sky.

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On 5/17/2018 at 2:04 PM, Bob8 said:

I appreciate that standards have risen, but I am not sure that is particularly important to a broadcaster.  For them, it would be is there a clamour to see the league.  I would question there is much overwhelming there is.  I suspect it is only about half the teams in Super League that are really of much worth to a broadcaster.  The rest are suitable for filler and there are plenty of possible fillers out there. 

If games are approaching SL levels, there is an argument.  Until then, I do not think broadcasters would be interested in spending any resources.

You have a good point here - I feel Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Wire, Hull and maybe Catalans are the core teams for viewership, and then whoever is playing entertaining Rugby i.e. right now Castleford. I would put Bradford up with the 5 above, if they were in SL as they have name recognition.   Relegation of Bradford won't have helped with the casual Sky Fan who dosen't really know RL well, merely watches it here and there. Name Teams matter.   Even myself , as a strong fan of RL, I would only see Dracs, Wigan, Leeds, Wire and Saints as must see teams, if one of these aren't playing I will be likely to see the game as of less interest.   Salford v Widnes dosen't exactly have a huge on paper thrill about it. 

Sadly, I feel the Championship as a stand alone does not have a lot of value for TV purposes. Its hard enough for La Liga 2 and even in England for the second tier of the sporting God that is Football to sell itself, let alone RL.

 I also feel the present situation of 1.8m salary cap for it is madness.....it makes it so unfair on smaller teams. Surely a Cap of say 900k  would allow bigger sides to assemble some SL level talent, and make the whole league more competitive?

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9 hours ago, Southerner80 said:

You have a good point here - I feel Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Wire, Hull and maybe Catalans are the core teams for viewership, and then whoever is playing entertaining Rugby i.e. right now Castleford. I would put Bradford up with the 5 above, if they were in SL as they have name recognition.   Relegation of Bradford won't have helped with the casual Sky Fan who dosen't really know RL well, merely watches it here and there. Name Teams matter.   Even myself , as a strong fan of RL, I would only see Dracs, Wigan, Leeds, Wire and Saints as must see teams, if one of these aren't playing I will be likely to see the game as of less interest.   Salford v Widnes dosen't exactly have a huge on paper thrill about it. 

Sadly, I feel the Championship as a stand alone does not have a lot of value for TV purposes. Its hard enough for La Liga 2 and even in England for the second tier of the sporting God that is Football to sell itself, let alone RL.

 I also feel the present situation of 1.8m salary cap for it is madness.....it makes it so unfair on smaller teams. Surely a Cap of say 900k  would allow bigger sides to assemble some SL level talent, and make the whole league more competitive?

The problem Super League has is that it has half a dozen teams that really add value to it. 

It needs more big teams and it does not matter where they come from.  It is more pressing that the debate about how we choose which ones to join that are not assets to the TV product. 

Lowering the salary cap to a level where all our best players will leave to rugby union or the NRL does not address that either.

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2 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The problem Super League has is that it has half a dozen teams that really add value to it. 

It needs more big teams and it does not matter where they come from.  It is more pressing that the debate about how we choose which ones to join that are not assets to the TV product. 

Lowering the salary cap to a level where all our best players will leave to rugby union or the NRL does not address that either.

I meant for the championship as presently the salary cap for it is 1,85m like SL hence twp and leigh have some very good players. I feel this doesn't make sense as it means how do part time teams compete? It would be like expecting Salford to compete with brisbane and cronulla. 

For SL I feel 2.5m would be a better cap and 0.9m for championship. 

The teams brought in need to be ones the public care about and to that extent Bradford are ahead of an American team. So would be French teams as Anglo French rivalry is big in sports and sells potentially

. The key audience for RL is probably getting more football fans here in the UK to watch as opposed to chasing rainbows in America... 

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17 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

I meant for the championship as presently the salary cap for it is 1,85m like SL hence twp and leigh have some very good players. I feel this doesn't make sense as it means how do part time teams compete? It would be like expecting Salford to compete with brisbane and cronulla. 

For SL I feel 2.5m would be a better cap and 0.9m for championship. 

The teams brought in need to be ones the public care about and to that extent Bradford are ahead of an American team. So would be French teams as Anglo French rivalry is big in sports and sells potentially

. The key audience for RL is probably getting more football fans here in the UK to watch as opposed to chasing rainbows in America... 

So you advocate creating competition by controlling the ambitious and as a consequence increasing the gap that needs to be breached. Luddite

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14 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

So you advocate creating competition by controlling the ambitious and as a consequence increasing the gap that needs to be breached. Luddite

I'm a realist.  You have to make championship entertaining. 50-4 batterings are not that. Twp v Halifax was so one sided that I left at half time as was not a contest. Those games are common in championship, not so much on SL 

Isn't SL better for a salary cap than say things were in 1994 where Wigan would spend 2m a year on wadges, and dominate?

PS I'm not a huge fan of relegation every year for RL. I don't think it's going to help the game. Ideally a 14-16 team SL with say 2-3 from France would be licenced for 3 years and at the end teams can reapply. 

That way Championship can be a strong standalone competion. 

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2 hours ago, Southerner80 said:

I'm a realist.  You have to make championship entertaining. 50-4 batterings are not that. Twp v Halifax was so one sided that I left at half time as was not a contest. Those games are common in championship, not so much on SL 

Isn't SL better for a salary cap than say things were in 1994 where Wigan would spend 2m a year on wadges, and dominate?

PS I'm not a huge fan of relegation every year for RL. I don't think it's going to help the game. Ideally a 14-16 team SL with say 2-3 from France would be licenced for 3 years and at the end teams can reapply. 

That way Championship can be a strong standalone competion. 

A strong competition ? , or a competitive competition ? 

Remove Promotion and youll end up with a DR reserve comp being watched by 3 men and a dog 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

A strong competition ? , or a competitive competition ? 

Remove Promotion and youll end up with a DR reserve comp being watched by 3 men and a dog 

Disagree. The championship was no promotion for a few years and still attracted okay attendances. I would be against too many loan signings say 6 max for a team at any one time.  and I would scrap DR altogether. 

I feel it could be both strong and competitive in the right circumstances. 

Edited by Southerner80

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2 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

Disagree. The championship was no promotion for a few years and still attracted okay attendances. I would be against too many loan signings say 6 max for a team at any one time.  and I would scrap DR altogether. 

I feel it could be both strong and competitive in the right circumstances. 

Totally ignorant post. After the last licence was granted to Widnes crowds dropped massively and benefactors walked away. The sniff of opportunity reversed that trend.

The only viable structure would be 2 x10 divisions of FT RL - let the PT clubs play in a PT comp

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20 hours ago, Southerner80 said:

Disagree. The championship was no promotion for a few years and still attracted okay attendances. I would be against too many loan signings say 6 max for a team at any one time.  and I would scrap DR altogether. 

I feel it could be both strong and competitive in the right circumstances. 

' OK ' meaning what ? 

Do you watch any particular team ? 

Do they have ambition to play at a higher level ? 

Leighs attendances dropped from 2500 ish to almost half that by 2013 , return of automatic promotion and the investement that brought with it saw it triple to mid 3000s 

 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

' OK ' meaning what ? 

Do you watch any particular team ? 

Do they have ambition to play at a higher level ? 

Leighs attendances dropped from 2500 ish to almost half that by 2013 , return of automatic promotion and the investement that brought with it saw it triple to mid 3000s 

 

You can't please everyone.... I'm saying a championship as a standalone has merit in making the sport sustainable.. It needs a fair salary cap to do that.... 

The current middle 8s system is silly as it means the championship is bascially a few big wallets and Canon fodder.... There's are reason SL has a cap or else Leeds and saints and Catalans, Wigan, Hull, Wigan would easily outspend the rest and you would see bigger margins.

I'm a fan of Catalans and I like Wigan. 

I feel P and R while it has some good points has negatives particularly for planning and for bringing in French sides. 2 guaranteed French teams with 12 UK ones is a good SL.... 

If you must have it 1 up 1 down works. 

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