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12 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

But the facts really don't show that Pakistani men are more likely to be sex offenders than men from any other group (and the overwhelming majority of sex offenders will be men). Yes, fear of being seen to be racist can play a part in some cases but, equally, not wanting to go against a hierarchy (Catholic church for example) or simply not believing the victim (as pointed out above, this is alarmingly regular and still goes on, especially when the allegation comes from a child in care or similar) come into it too.

Here's a link https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/. This does, by the way, suggest that there may be more Asian men involved in grooming gangs than you would expect relative to the population (with caveats on the data) but also points out that that's just one type of abuse. And it is worth reading because it highlights the difficulty of finding a 'truth'.

The one thing I think we can agree on is that Tommy Robinson does not care about the truth in any meaningful sense. There are unreported child sex abuse cases with equivalent blackout restrictions going on every day. There's a certain similarity about the ones he chooses to turn up to.

These are the very denials and refusal to accept the truth that allowed this to happen in the first place.

People.may be of "the tin hat brigade" but they are not stupid. They are fully capable of realising the identity of the main perpetrators.

 

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One of the telling statements to come out of the Rochdale report was that ALL those involved, perpetrators, police and social services had the same view of the girls involved, that they were “worthless ####” 

It wasn’t a cover up, it was simply that no one cared 

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21 minutes ago, Niels said:

These are the very denials and refusal to accept the truth that allowed this to happen in the first place.

People.may be of "the tin hat brigade" but they are not stupid. They are fully capable of realising the identity of the main perpetrators.

 

Which bit of that was a denial?

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22 minutes ago, Phil said:

One of the telling statements to come out of the Rochdale report was that ALL those involved, perpetrators, police and social services had the same view of the girls involved, that they were “worthless ####” 

It wasn’t a cover up, it was simply that no one cared 

And that's the saddest bit of it all.

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38 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Which bit of that was a denial?

Fair point.

To discuss it further, I dont know whether you agree but I think people did care about the girls. Ann Cryer at Keighley tried hard to help but was frustrated by PC constraints.

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Here's a funny thing I've noticed.

When we get footage of someone abusing say, a woman in a burqa on a bus. It's conclusive evidence that the UK is a terrible racist society and we should all feel ashamed of ourselves (and our racist forbearers natch)

But when we have cases like the Rochdale/Telford/Newcastle/Keighley etc etc grooming gangs, why that's just random men and is absolutely not representative of Muslim Pakistani men. In fact, if you say it is *you're* the racist. (Despite these rapists also being racist)

I do love modern thinking.

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10 hours ago, Niels said:

Fair point.

To discuss it further, I dont know whether you agree but I think people did care about the girls. Ann Cryer at Keighley tried hard to help but was frustrated by PC constraints.

Ann Cryer is a good case in point. She was ignored and her motives questioned years before it all came to light.

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6 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Ann Cryer is a good case in point. She was ignored and her motives questioned years before it all came to light.

Some suggested Joyce Thacker was in a similar position 

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11 hours ago, Phil said:

It wasn’t a cover up, it was simply that no one cared 

No cover up just trying to cover their own bums

 

10 hours ago, Niels said:

Ann Cryer at Keighley tried hard to help but was frustrated by PC constraints.

That's a bit of nonsense there niels PC had nothing to do with it and bringing it up here of all places is sad. People being ignored when they're trying to do the right thing is hardly unusual in these days where so many fall through the cracks in the system.

Dyke, finger, storm for you to put in a sentence for all those who are silenced.

 

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Unfortunately, if anyone wants to Google about the Ann Cryer affair, they will see that she was branded racist and basically told to hush.

Let's take the 'they were chavs and slags' angle. Is anybody *seriously* trying to tell me that if the police became aware of mass child abuse/rapes, they would ignore it because of the class of the girls concerned? Today?? In this day and age? That's absolute BS and if you're honest, you know it too.

We aren't talking about one or two wayward girls who won't respond to help and keep running away (I've known at least one of those myself) but numerous complaints from different people, all with a common theme. This theme was the reason for turning a blind eye. And don't pretend the police can't make conscious decisions over who they arrest or target because they do it all the time.

Another argument from the left is that it is racialising sexual crime and thus racist in itself. Well if the view of the left is that we ignore reality and pretend in order to fit our textbook theories, then the left can do one for me.

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12 hours ago, gingerjon said:

But the facts really don't show that Pakistani men are more likely to be sex offenders than men from any other group (and the overwhelming majority of sex offenders will be men). 

The difference that has been identified is that Asian men (predominantly Pakistani Asians but not exclusively) tend to act in gangs where as British non-Asian men tend to act alone.  There was never any claim that Asian men are more likely to be sex offenders; but they are more likely to act in gangs than non-Asians.  

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7 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

There was never any claim that Asian men are more likely to be sex offenders;

Yeah, right.

Edited by gingerjon

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9 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

 Is anybody *seriously* trying to tell me that if the police became aware of mass child abuse/rapes, they would ignore it because of the class of the girls concerned? 

Yup. Yes. And definitely.

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20 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yup. Yes. And definitely.

Then you're barking mate. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest today, that if ONE young girl walked into a police station and said she'd been raped, she would be dismissed on the grounds of her social status. I can possibly imagine that going on in the past but not in today's PC police (and I mean within the last ten years and more) Let alone numerous cases, it is delusion of the highest order.

 

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6 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

and I mean within the last ten years and more

When do you think this was going on?

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11 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Then you're barking mate. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest today, that if ONE young girl walked into a police station and said she'd been raped, she would be dismissed on the grounds of her social status. I can possibly imagine that going on in the past but not in today's PC police (and I mean within the last ten years and more) Let alone numerous cases, it is delusion of the highest order.

 

Thats exactly when the majority of cases come from, Telford, Rochdale, Rotherham, etc were all cases from over 10 years ago.  Telford was known about (and ignored) in the 1990's for example.  

Hopefully if a girl walks into a station today, her case will actually be investigated. (though in lots of cases the girls weren't the ones going to the police, as the girls didn't think they were being abused, 'he was my boyfriend', etc)

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16 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Thats exactly when the majority of cases come from, Telford, Rochdale, Rotherham, etc were all cases from over 10 years ago.  Telford was known about (and ignored) in the 1990's for example.  

Hopefully if a girl walks into a station today, her case will actually be investigated. (though in lots of cases the girls weren't the ones going to the police, as the girls didn't think they were being abused, 'he was my boyfriend', etc)

That is the insidious nature of CSE and why the 'exploitation' part of its label is so important to remember IMO.

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1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

That is the insidious nature of CSE and why the 'exploitation' part of its label is so important to remember IMO.

BBC has a report from last month which includes a woman who is now 37 who now realises that she has never, in her life, had consensual sex.

She is in Britain but as an asylum seeker feels unable to go to the police.

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2 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

That is the insidious nature of CSE and why the 'exploitation' part of its label is so important to remember IMO.

True, many of the girls didn't realise what was really going on for many years after (wouldn't be surprised if there are some who would still defend their 'boyfriends').  

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1 hour ago, Shadow said:

When do you think this was going on?

Was? I like your optimism. I only said 10 years off the top of my head. The police have been PC for much longer.

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

BBC has a report from last month which includes a woman who is now 37 who now realises that she has never, in her life, had consensual sex.

She is in Britain but as an asylum seeker feels unable to go to the police.

Where was this woman living? If not in the UK, what can the police do about it?

That's not to say the woman doesn't deserve sympathy and the chance of escape from a horrible past. But I don't see what the police can do if the crimes were committed in another country.

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1 hour ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Thats exactly when the majority of cases come from, Telford, Rochdale, Rotherham, etc were all cases from over 10 years ago.  Telford was known about (and ignored) in the 1990's for example.  

Hopefully if a girl walks into a station today, her case will actually be investigated. (though in lots of cases the girls weren't the ones going to the police, as the girls didn't think they were being abused, 'he was my boyfriend', etc)

But the police were ignoring things for political expediency, even in the 90's.

The law hasn't changed in the respect that even if an underage person says they consent to sex, it's still illegal. It's a fair point that not every case was reported as the girls in question were naive or under threat of violence....but many were.

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19 hours ago, ckn said:

A corruption of the old iron fist in a velvet glove saying that refers to soft words disguising hard intents.  The view of Robinson in his EDL leadership days were clear to all, his view on "English" meant clearly white, British born and from some sort of Christian background in your past.  He joined Quilliam as a way to get plenty of media attention about how great they were and talking about how to combat extremism when really his views were vaguely worded racism of the worst dog-whistle style.  The EDL left Quilliam mainly because the two sides couldn't get along and Robinson felt that merely talking a good game wasn't enough.

It's interesting to see the lecture Tommy Robinson gave to the Oxford Union in 2015.

I'm not sure that your description of him is very accurate.

You don't have to agree with everything he says, but it's certainly worth watching.

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