scotchy1

League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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1 minute ago, redjonn said:

Personally I think strategically the split into 8's and subsequently the middle 8 was daft with having a minimal salary cap.  As could be seen from previous years you could have lost your strongest financial clubs (Warrington and Leeds) and still could if Leeds fall into middle 8's again.

If you have such that a salary cap suited to the weakest common denominator preventing the higher profile and stronger clubs from spending and then have a 1/3rd of clubs in the mix for relegation then who on earth would design such.

Its the funding that concerns me. So whilst I don't mind a change to the league structure surely the ills of the sport are not because of structure. 

Incidently Leeds have no problem selling season tickets as they include the extra games, maybe 4 or 3 depending upon position.  Surely selling season tickets shouldn't be an issue. The planning for games and non season tickets I can see being an issue.

 

 

Certainly is an issue , no wonder nobody manages to get tickets to cup matches in sports all over the world at short notice

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So finally finished the watching the press conference and I have to say I wasn't impressed with Lenegan or Moran tbh. Lenegan claimed he didn't want it to be the Lenegan show, and then proceeded to give his view on literally every minor point.

I think McManus and Elstone spoke well, professional, respectful to other areas of the game and with pragmatism and optimism.

Moran was a waste of time, and when asked about the buzz factor talked a load of guff, repeating myths about the top tier being empty at Wembley, and 2k crowds in 27k grounds, before celebrating at 10k crowd in a 15k ground in the cup last week at Wire.

Interesting times ahead, Ithink Elstone has a real job on his hands, good luck to him!

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Thats hardly ideal though is it. Selling season tickets on the basis of an unknown amount of games to the point you are having to give one away pretty much free.

its never been a problem at Leeds. Its costed as an extra x3 and the 4th comes free.  In fact I don't think the overall season tickets prices changed much if at all for the change to the 8's. So extra games at minimal extra cost, if any increase.

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1 minute ago, redjonn said:

its never been a problem at Leeds. Its costed as an extra x3 and the 4th comes free.  In fact I don't think the overall season tickets prices changed much if at all for the change to the 8's. So extra games at minimal extra cost, if any increase.

Which is hardly ideal for the club is it. Having the uncertainty of the costs of putting on another game that season ticket holders arent charged for, is arranged at short notice and is fairly poorly attended.

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8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Certainly is an issue , no wonder nobody manages to get tickets to cup matches in sports all over the world at short notice

To be fair, cup match attendances are typically lower than for structured league matches across many sports, RL in particular. So you're kind of making the point for them.

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18 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Do you think there is going to be a split like the old days from Union?

I don't know, but I'm sure that this won't be helpful to anyone trying to start other teams here in America to follow the trail blazed by Toronto.

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Just now, Moove said:

To be fair, cup match attendances are typically lower than for structured league matches across many sports, RL in particular. So you're kind of making the point for them.

You said it RL in particular , bottom line is many RL fans are as tight as cramp , thinking once they've bought a season ticket , thats it , other sports have no such problem

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14 minutes ago, redjonn said:

If you have such that a salary cap suited to the weakest common denominator preventing the higher profile and stronger clubs from spending and then have a 1/3rd of clubs in the mix for relegation then who on earth would design such.

A Halifax fan?!

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Just now, GUBRATS said:

Absolute nightmare , having to arrange a RL match with only 6 weeks notice

Just to clarify you have to arrange 3/4 games with 2-6 weeks notice

If supporters don’t know the fixture list for a season and they have a big blank month they take a gamble and arrange other things to do, with the hope they don’t miss a game. It’s a gamble, it doesn’t necessarily have to be

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2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I don't know, but I'm sure that this won't be helpful to anyone trying to start other teams here in America to follow the trail blazed by Toronto.

Neither will a sub $ 500 K salary cap

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

You said it RL in particular , bottom line is many RL fans are as tight as cramp , thinking once they've bought a season ticket , thats it , other sports have no such problem

It’s not always about the money. With no fixtures scheduled people find other things to do

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1 minute ago, Spidey said:

Just to clarify you have to arrange 3/4 games with 2-6 weeks notice

If supporters don’t know the fixture list for a season and they have a big blank month they take a gamble and arrange other things to do, with the hope they don’t miss a game. It’s a gamble, it doesn’t necessarily have to be

Yes they do , but they are actually aware of the games , it isnt like its dropped on them , they know they will have 3/4 games in an 8 week period , much like they used to have 3/4 games in a 4 week period when in play offs , how do the aussies cope in the NRL ? , or even the Yanks in the NFL up to Super Bowl ?

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3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It’s not always about the money. With no fixtures scheduled people find other things to do

Its 90% about the money

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2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

This was a joke, right? 

The RFL can't even manage a team of development officers and yet you think they can manage junior development better than the likes of Saints, Wigan and leeds who have excellent set-up.

It should be the complete opposite with rules put in place that make all clubs have academic as good as the top clubs.

So would you agree if that was possible that each club worked in a demarcation zone where they could only recruit players from within those boundaries, e.g. Leeds no longer going into Oldham, Wigan no longer into Wakefield, Saints no longer into South Cumbria etc, if part of the criteria is to produce players then those most likely to make it through the academies should be shared out, do you agree?

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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You said it RL in particular , bottom line is many RL fans are as tight as cramp , thinking once they've bought a season ticket , thats it , other sports have no such problem

Selective quoting does you no favours, particularly when your statement is totally incorrect. A simple glance at football attendances show very similar differences between cup and league matches.

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20 minutes ago, redjonn said:

its never been a problem at Leeds. Its costed as an extra x3 and the 4th comes free.  In fact I don't think the overall season tickets prices changed much if at all for the change to the 8's. So extra games at minimal extra cost, if any increase.

I'm curious. If a club has the increased costs of staging an extra 3 or 4 games, but doesn't generate any money from playing those games...what's the point?

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1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

That's just not true. You'd have a professional league, and you'd have schools and community rugby league. The semi-pro clubs are not 'the sport', just one very small part of it.

Isn't it?

Just how many kids will take up the game, and adults get involved in it, if all they see is a very limited number of places at a very limited number of SL clubs, if they want to earn some money, or the amateur game?  Where would much of the infractructure in the game go if the clubs outside of SL were not there?  Where wouyld the development of the game take place, if any development was centred around a handful of professional clubs only?

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24 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Which is hardly ideal for the club is it. Having the uncertainty of the costs of putting on another game that season ticket holders arent charged for, is arranged at short notice and is fairly poorly attended.

not as far as I see at Leeds, although it does impact commercial for the first of the 3 or 4 8's games.. However, I think we are both getting pedantic here.

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7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So would you agree if that was possible that each club worked in a demarcation zone where they could only recruit players from within those boundaries, e.g. Leeds no longer going into Oldham, Wigan no longer into Wakefield, Saints no longer into South Cumbria etc, if part of the criteria is to produce players then those most likely to make it through the academies should be shared out, do you agree?

I do. If it's criteria for being in SL, then it can't be a free-for-all, it needs to be regulated such that all teams at that level can demonstrably have a top level academy. 

1) Football - anyone can have an academy, top clubs hoover up the talent, some clubs in lower levels are known for their academies and can attract top talent without being a top club, they become selling clubs.

2) RU - 14 official RFU academies, run by (vaguely) the top 14 clubs under RFU licence, with demarcated geographic boundaries (dividing the whole of England) and procedures for grievance/arbitration if a club goes poaching (including IIRC, loss of academy running rights). All other clubs can have an academy where they polish the rough diamonds that the 14 RFU academies have missed.

3) RL (currently) free-for-all where a few clubs do the heavy lifting, are proud of this, hoover up all the talent then use their heavy lifting as a stick to beat the clubs who don't have pockets deep enough to have got in ahead of their hoovering.

RL is currently option 3, pretending it's option 1, but without the cash or indeed the credibility. Option 2 might just work....

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1 minute ago, TrueBull said:

http://www.rugby-league.com/leagues__competitions/academies

I found this (thanks John...)  earlier today. I didn't realise the academies were all paid for by Super League. The interesting ones are the 3 non-SL academies - Bradford, London & Newcastle who all get SL funding to pay for them. 

Hang on, I might be misunderstanding, but that's saying the U19s Academy Championship is funded by SuperLeague. It's not saying that SL is fully funding the academies.

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12 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

I'm curious. If a club has the increased costs of staging an extra 3 or 4 games, but doesn't generate any money from playing those games...what's the point?

I guess Leeds are the best or at least one of the better at generating revenue.

I suspect that if their was no extra charge or little percentage increase one could look at that as a means to generate extra season ticket sale. A loss leader as season ticket sales are meant to be, that is cheaper per game than non season ticket and even more cheaper in this instance per game. So cash flow overall is evened to some extent and then recoup some with non season ticket prices for those extra games.

Edited by redjonn

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1 minute ago, Adeybull said:

Isn't it?

Just how many kids will take up the game, and adults get involved in it, if all they see is a very limited number of places at a very limited number of SL clubs, if they want to earn some money, or the amateur game?  Where would much of the infractructure in the game go if the clubs outside of SL were not there?  Where wouyld the development of the game take place, if any development was centred around a handful of professional clubs only?

Firstly, I don't believe kids play the game (any game) because they want to become professionals, or at least not in the early stages. That comes later, initially it's because they've been introduced to it and enjoy playing it.

Secondly, player development is almost exclusively via schools, community clubs and the SL academies. A tiny number of pro players come via the C/L1 clubs.

Thirdly, is there a correlation between the existence of a C/L1 club and player development? Oldham, the town, produces elite professional RL players. Oldham Roughyeds, not so much. Looking at the Roughyeds forum, fans think the club has little or no contact with the community clubs. That suggests that the club is not really involved in any meaningful way in producing elite RL players. (Spud, I'm not picking on Oldham I could have used any number of clubs)

The C/L1 clubs have a place in the sport, of course they do, I enjoy watching Championship RL myself. But, objectively, it's a very small one. The sport is driven by the success or otherwise of SL and the community clubs.

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1 minute ago, redjonn said:

I guess Leeds are the best or at least one of the better at generating revenue.

I suspect that if the their was no extra charge or little percentage increase one could look at that as a means to generate extra season ticket sale. A loss leader as season ticket sales are meant to be, that is cheaper per game than non season ticket. So cash flow is evened to some extent and then recoup some with non season ticket prices for those extra games.

But leeds attendance hasnt gone up since the introduction of the 8s.

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