scotchy1

League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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15 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

Isn't it?

Just how many kids will take up the game, and adults get involved in it, if all they see is a very limited number of places at a very limited number of SL clubs, if they want to earn some money, or the amateur game?  Where would much of the infractructure in the game go if the clubs outside of SL were not there?  Where wouyld the development of the game take place, if any development was centred around a handful of professional clubs only?

Why would development only be centred around a handful of professional clubs?  Soccer player development happens in pretty much every UK town doesn't it?

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Just now, Big Picture said:

Why would development only be centred around a handful of professional clubs?  Soccer player development happens in pretty much every UK town doesn't it?

football is in a *slightly* different position to pretty much every other team sport in the UK though....

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3 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

Hang on, I might be misunderstanding, but that's saying the U19s Academy Championship is funded by SuperLeague. It's not saying that SL is fully funding the academies.

As far as I'm aware, it may not be fully funding each one, but the SL pays a subsidy to all clubs that run an academy. If you run a basic academy, it should just about cover it, if you have a massive academy system, the subsidy will help. I don't know how long Newcastle's academy has been going, but SL keep voting to continue paying the money to Bradford & London since they dropped out of SL. 

I always thought the money came from central funds - I just assumed RFL rather than SL. 

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1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

football is in a *slightly* different position to pretty much every other team sport in the UK though....

Then RL needs a high-profile league to inspire young guys to want to play it.

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

But leeds attendance hasnt gone up since the introduction of the 8s.

I have no idea.... and attendance is impacted by lots of things.... I mean for one of those years Leeds where playing poorly enough to be in the relegation mix, as they may well be this year. The stadium is impacting attendance last year and this year.

It may also be impacted by the concept of the 8's  but I doubt thats the only factor, if a factor at all/ Although I suspect it is a factor.

Unless one can be specific with evidence as to what factors have impacted attendance no point in just saying it is because of one factor.

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Just now, Big Picture said:

Then RL needs a high-profile league to inspire young guys to want to play it.

Ah, big chickens to produce all the eggs needed to produce the big chickens you mean?

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4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Why would development only be centred around a handful of professional clubs?  Soccer player development happens in pretty much every UK town doesn't it?

Maybe because every main town also has a football club. That in itself helps even it the people/children support one of the top premier clubs.

Maybe by having the lower level clubs we currently have helps schools and community clubs attract participants that would otherwise be lost.

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1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

Ah, big chickens to produce all the eggs needed to produce the big chickens you mean?

 

1 minute ago, redjonn said:

Maybe because every main town also has a football club. That in itself helps even it the people/children support one of the top premier clubs.

Maybe by having the lower level clubs we currently have helps schools and community clubs attract participants that would otherwise be lost.

The arrival of the NHL in California spurred interest in ice hockey there leading to growth and player development occurring there, the arrival of the NBA in Toronto did the same for basketball there, etc.  Top-level pro sports attract young guys to take up those sports.

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6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Then RL needs a high-profile league to inspire young guys to want to play it.

I would agree but then again those SL clubs are helped by championship clubs getting into schools and community clubs.  If not championship clubs able to do that then the SL clubs themselves at extra costs or somebody else needs the resourcing to do that.

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Nadera, Bradford are a League 1 club. How many S.L. players and International players have come through the Bradford Academy and still are coming through.As for the bigger clubs stockpiling the best academy players,yes they are and what do they do with them? loan them or d/r them out to other clubs.I have read through 31 pages of these comments and I am amazed at the number of posters that keep repeating the vote was 11-1.Do any of you really believe that Wakey,Hull K R ,salford,Widnes,Huddersfield would even think about voting against it even if deep down they know it is wrong.Toronto should be in S.L. next season at any cost,kick one of these 5 out ,they bring absolutely to S.L. If anybody thinks these clubs are Super League clubs they are deluded.

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3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

 

The arrival of the NHL in California spurred interest in ice hockey there leading to growth and player development occurring there, the arrival of the NBA in Toronto did the same for basketball there, etc.  Top-level pro sports attract young guys to take up those sports.

Then do we only have the SL clubs as they can do everything and the other clubs are a drain on the sport.

Now that may not be what you have said but it is the logical extension.

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2 minutes ago, TrueBull said:

As far as I'm aware, it may not be fully funding each one, but the SL pays a subsidy to all clubs that run an academy. If you run a basic academy, it should just about cover it, if you have a massive academy system, the subsidy will help. I don't know how long Newcastle's academy has been going, but SL keep voting to continue paying the money to Bradford & London since they dropped out of SL. 

I always thought the money came from central funds - I just assumed RFL rather than SL. 

To be honest, I think if it's the case that SL is funding the academies as is then that's an even bigger can of worms. You can't just shut them down/start them up/relocate them willy nilly so (as the existence of London and Bradford would show) you end up with some clubs having direct benefit from central funding and others missing out. Say, for example, Fev got promoted to SL. Either they need to run and fund their own academy, or SL pays for them to start one (on top of Wakey's and Cas'), or they don't have one at all. If they need to have an academy to go up and they're not getting the funding everyone else in SL is then that's unfair; but alternatively SL is having to split it's funds 16 ways instead of 15 and open an academy on the doorstep of two of the others.

Same deal with Toronto, although obviously they wouldn't be in Calder - either they have to have one and pay for it themselves, SL spreads the academy jam thinner, or they don't have one. I really think, and this isn't where I was when I started this tangent, that the RFL/SL does have to get a grip and mandate the overall number of academies, the geographical spread, and how far it's necessary/practical/desirable* for all clubs in SL to have one.

*I'm sure we can all agree it would be desirable, necessary is more debatable. If we're going to radically change the clubs in the top flight in the next few years then "practical" might well be the stumbling block.

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7 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Then do we only have the SL clubs as they can do everything and the other clubs are a drain on the sport.

Now that may not be what you have said but it is the logical extension.

No the other clubs are not a drain on the sport, they are part of it in their communities.  And the current SL clubs can't do more than they do now, because they don't have the high profile necessary to attract those legions of young guys to take up the game.

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15 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

To be honest, I think if it's the case that SL is funding the academies as is then that's an even bigger can of worms. You can't just shut them down/start them up/relocate them willy nilly so (as the existence of London and Bradford would show) you end up with some clubs having direct benefit from central funding and others missing out. Say, for example, Fev got promoted to SL. Either they need to run and fund their own academy, or SL pays for them to start one (on top of Wakey's and Cas'), or they don't have one at all. If they need to have an academy to go up and they're not getting the funding everyone else in SL is then that's unfair; but alternatively SL is having to split it's funds 16 ways instead of 15 and open an academy on the doorstep of two of the others.

Same deal with Toronto, although obviously they wouldn't be in Calder - either they have to have one and pay for it themselves, SL spreads the academy jam thinner, or they don't have one. I really think, and this isn't where I was when I started this tangent, that the RFL/SL does have to get a grip and mandate the overall number of academies, the geographical spread, and how far it's necessary/practical/desirable* for all clubs in SL to have one.

*I'm sure we can all agree it would be desirable, necessary is more debatable. If we're going to radically change the clubs in the top flight in the next few years then "practical" might well be the stumbling block.

    The funding runs until 2020.

  Is it not just monies taken from Sky tv deal - a bit like the Sky-Try participation

   Anyway,til 2020 - http://www.rugby-league.com/article/50872/record-number-of-academies-rated-as-outstanding

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18 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

mmm not say much really except a dig back.

So do we have a change of P&R for next season or not.

Seems to say until agreed by RFL the answer is No.... but he would expect Elstone to be able to persuade the RFL to agree, [and if not then ,,,,,]

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13 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

    The funding runs until 2020.

  Is it not just monies taken from Sky tv deal - a bit like the Sky-Try participation

   Anyway,til 2020 - http://www.rugby-league.com/article/50872/record-number-of-academies-rated-as-outstanding

As a matter of interest who does get the Sky try monies.... as its purpose is to raise participation levels.  

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57 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

I do. If it's criteria for being in SL, then it can't be a free-for-all, it needs to be regulated such that all teams at that level can demonstrably have a top level academy. 

1) Football - anyone can have an academy, top clubs hoover up the talent, some clubs in lower levels are known for their academies and can attract top talent without being a top club, they become selling clubs.

2) RU - 14 official RFU academies, run by (vaguely) the top 14 clubs under RFU licence, with demarcated geographic boundaries (dividing the whole of England) and procedures for grievance/arbitration if a club goes poaching (including IIRC, loss of academy running rights). All other clubs can have an academy where they polish the rough diamonds that the 14 RFU academies have missed.

3) RL (currently) free-for-all where a few clubs do the heavy lifting, are proud of this, hoover up all the talent then use their heavy lifting as a stick to beat the clubs who don't have pockets deep enough to have got in ahead of their hoovering.

RL is currently option 3, pretending it's option 1, but without the cash or indeed the credibility. Option 2 might just work....

I think you will be holding your breath for a very long time before McManus and Leneghan would agree to losing their stranglehold on this part of the game.

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1 hour ago, iffleyox said:

I do. If it's criteria for being in SL, then it can't be a free-for-all, it needs to be regulated such that all teams at that level can demonstrably have a top level academy.

1) Football - anyone can have an academy, top clubs hoover up the talent, some clubs in lower levels are known for their academies and can attract top talent without being a top club, they become selling clubs.

2) RU - 14 official RFU academies, run by (vaguely) the top 14 clubs under RFU licence, with demarcated geographic boundaries (dividing the whole of England) and procedures for grievance/arbitration if a club goes poaching (including IIRC, loss of academy running rights). All other clubs can have an academy where they polish the rough diamonds that the 14 RFU academies have missed.

3) RL (currently) free-for-all where a few clubs do the heavy lifting, are proud of this, hoover up all the talent then use their heavy lifting as a stick to beat the clubs who don't have pockets deep enough to have got in ahead of their hoovering.

RL is currently option 3, pretending it's option 1, but without the cash or indeed the credibility. Option 2 might just work....

Pretty nuch sums it all up , but as harry has pointed out , there wont be any changes either

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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So a ' power grab ' it is , do as we wish , or we'll starve you of cash

Well, it is their cash. SL generates 99% of the sport's revenue in this country.

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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So a ' power grab ' it is , do as we wish , or we'll starve you of cash

Yes, indeed. Will be interesting to see how Hetherington responds.

Maybe Leeds will join the Championship?!

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That covers a lot of the points raised by sensible contributors on here at least and is a welcome contribution in my opinion.  As to the overal way this has been handled,  possibly, just possibly, SL may he frustrated by the lack of progress in negotiatons with the RFL and so decided on a radical acceleration to get some movement.

I've long defended the RFL and Wood from much of the criticism aimed at them on here. That was largely motivated by a desire to counter the reflex reaction from those posters whose default position was one of "whatever it is, it's rubbish".  That does not mean to say I agree or agreee with everything they did or didn't do. 

Now that SL has taken the initiative and injected some robust action into tardy negotiations, I look forward to renewed energy and effectiveness from the RFL freed from the responsibility of things they were never particularly good at, releasing that resource so allowing them to concentrate on the things they can do: rules, regulations, registrations, disciplinary, RLIF stuff  and more.  I look forward, too, to the Championship clubs following the SL model and acting as one league rather than a bunch of individual teams.

Edited by JohnM
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2 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Well, it is their cash. SL generates 99% of the sport's revenue in this country.

Dont disagree , they've decided that they will decide what happens in SL , be interesting to see how much influence they want over the rest of the game

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