scotchy1

League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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1 hour ago, fairfolly said:

May be irrelavent,but Ant made a statement that at least Huddersfield own their own ground,I asked a simple genuine question,do they?

You could have just used Google instead of repeating the same question over and over

Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirklees_Stadium

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11 hours ago, Roy Haggerty said:

This is quite a generous spin. Essentially what you're saying is that:

Cas have been up, down, up, down

Leigh have been up, down, up, down

Salford have been down, up, down, up

Hull KR have been up, down, up

Widnes have been up, down, up


Four of those teams (Salford, Hull Kr, Widnes and Leigh) are at this stage all quite likely to be adding another down or up to their record this year.

And this is evidence that yo-yoing doesn't exist?

 

I’m not sure what you expect? Do we have to see all SL clubs suffer relegation before we dismiss yo-yo-ing?

The so called fear of yo-yo-ing is that the same teams will be promoted and relegated every year.

The only consecutive seasons where the same teams were promoted/relegated was 2004/05. Every other season saw either one or two different clubs promoted/relegated compared to the previous. 

Your list of Ups and Downs include non 1up 1down seasons like HKR who missed out through middle 8s, so not relevant to the point. Especially not when they were relegated despite finishing the regular season in 9th. You can add Widnes to that too, who suffered the misfortune of being relegated for finishing second last making room for Cats. Again, not an example of 1 Up 1 Down.

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17 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The changes and communicating them were necessary. Imagine if they had done that in 6 weeks when the 8s were decided? There would have screaming from the high heavens how it was to protect X Y and Z or to shut out A B or C

They obviously felt the 8s were so damaging that they couldnt simply sleepwalk in to another year of them or more likely 2 years of them.

I dont see a particular problem, if thats what has been decided, with saying the 8s are particularly damaging we are going to this system next year whilst we conduct further discussions and investigations to create a new system that will take us forward from 2021.

However because of the way that it was communicated in a conference rather than a press release the unintended consequence of that was that only the headlines came out, not the further details and then with the intervention of Hetherington and the other chairmen we never got past the headlines in to the details and were left in a bunfight.

Im not that worried to be honest. That so many SL clubs are together tells us it will go that way, Hetheringtons statement was, when analyzed only p155 and wind and the RFLs pretty timid statement tells us there is not much a fight left.

There is a worst case scenario here that the b1tch and moan between each other for the next couple of years and we go in to 2021 with rancour a new system and a weak position going in to the negotiations.

Theres an alternative that over the next couple of months a few people fall in line and we agree on a format for next season and Elstone can start in earnest doing the things he was employed to do. That gives us too full years of this bright new dawn and we end up going in to 2021 with a wet sail and wind at our backs.

I understand and agree changes were wanted and needed regarding the 8s. But I feel a big song and dance at the Press Conference was made about this, rather than to adress the bigger problems in the game out what the aim of Elstone and Co actually is to adress them. The Comments from Lenagan and Moran were neither constructive or needed. 

I have not seen what Elstone said tonight, but it looks positive from what was posted by somebody. But why was this not properly covered at the Press Conference? This would have saved alot of the pointless comments, anger and disillussion that has come out from various people afterwards. The Press Conference just came across all wrong and didnt help Elstone in anyway. I hope that things will improve in future.

My concern is that the many problems in SL (and the game as a whole) are not going to improve anytime soon and the comments from Lenagan, Moran, Hetherington, Nicholas etc etc have caused even more damage to a game thats stuck in a rut going nowhere. It seems people are far more interested in what they can gain or have to lose rather than whats best for the game. The damage the comments from all these doesnt seem to bother them. And thats the worrying part as everybody is up for a  fight but what thats not what the game needs. It needs people to look to work wit each other for the benefit of everyone. But thats not going to happen is it.

We need to have a Framework that helps everybody from the Strong Clubs like Wigan, Leeds, etc to the Small Clubs like West Wales to the Amateur and Junior game as well as the womens and other forms of the game like Wheelchair, Tag etc . Alot of the fault is the RFL and has been for years. But also we have many people involved in the game at all levels, that only look and decide on things from their point of view and often dont care about how that damages others. The Comments from people this week show that. I dont know of any other sport that has so much infighting and has so many egotistical people. Thats why Rugby League is a minority Sport over anything else. We are slowly killing our Sport within.

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

But dont forget his ' remit ' is SL , not necessarily the sport as a whole

But his actions and the actions of SL can damage/benefit other areas of the game in a big way. Rugby League is more than SL/NRL

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3 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So a ' power grab ' it is , do as we wish , or we'll starve you of cash

That's not a power grab. That's merely the pointing out of where power already lies.

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On 6/13/2018 at 1:27 PM, scotchy1 said:

No most SL owners prefer licencing over the 8s

Fixed your typo.

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Watching tonights game was evidence, if we need it, that there aren't 12 clubs in the 'elite'

Poor quality fare from two poor teams played in front of a largely empty stadium.

I didn't hear anything from Elstone and/or Lenaghan about how anything they are proposing would make any positive difference to that reality.

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Haven't read through the thread so apologies if i repeat any points - im not a fan of this planned change at all, mainly because i just think 1 up, 1 down isn't enough. 2 up, 2 down fair enough, give a bit more of a chance for championship clubs to be promoted (top goes up automatic then football-style playoff system for second promotion anyone?). I just think one up is a bit of a closed shop, especially if you've got one big team in there with basically half a super league squad (think leigh the other year). Also i don't seem to have heard much about the top end play offs, assume they're planned to be changed also? If that's the case there may be a gap of about 4 teams who have nothing to play for with a few games left (although the super 8s can lead to this as well to be fair). 

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21 minutes ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

I understand and agree changes were wanted and needed regarding the 8s. But I feel a big song and dance at the Press Conference was made about this, rather than to adress the bigger problems in the game out what the aim of Elstone and Co actually is to adress them. The Comments from Lenagan and Moran were neither constructive or needed. 

I have not seen what Elstone said tonight, but it looks positive from what was posted by somebody. But why was this not properly covered at the Press Conference? This would have saved alot of the pointless comments, anger and disillussion that has come out from various people afterwards. The Press Conference just came across all wrong and didnt help Elstone in anyway. I hope that things will improve in future.

My concern is that the many problems in SL (and the game as a whole) are not going to improve anytime soon and the comments from Lenagan, Moran, Hetherington, Nicholas etc etc have caused even more damage to a game thats stuck in a rut going nowhere. It seems people are far more interested in what they can gain or have to lose rather than whats best for the game. The damage the comments from all these doesnt seem to bother them. And thats the worrying part as everybody is up for a  fight but what thats not what the game needs. It needs people to look to work wit each other for the benefit of everyone. But thats not going to happen is it.

We need to have a Framework that helps everybody from the Strong Clubs like Wigan, Leeds, etc to the Small Clubs like West Wales to the Amateur and Junior game as well as the womens and other forms of the game like Wheelchair, Tag etc . Alot of the fault is the RFL and has been for years. But also we have many people involved in the game at all levels, that only look and decide on things from their point of view and often dont care about how that damages others. The Comments from people this week show that. I dont know of any other sport that has so much infighting and has so many egotistical people. Thats why Rugby League is a minority Sport over anything else. We are slowly killing our Sport within.

Thats the thing, it was covered in the press conference. If you look at the interviews from Elstone at the framework, the comments from the journos at the press conference the comments were all similar, how engaged, passionate and forward thinking he was, a breath of fresh air etc etc.

The problem is it being judged in hind-sight. Getting him out there, getting the big questions answered as far as they could be was exactly the right thing to do. The problem was the means they chose to do that. The filter of the RL press A) took time, which led to b) it then being filtered through the lens of the subsequent bun fight.

Yesterday i would have said bring on the fight, the fight was so necessary we should have looked forward to it. Today i think that fight has been had. Its over. There is an interesting thing to note about every statement from the none-lenegan side. And that is none of them state this wont happen or it will be fought against. Not one of them say we wont be going with a new structure next year, not one of them say they can't do this, not one says we will stop them.

I dont know what the vision of lenegan and co is, i dont know if i agree with it but im confident it will happen so im left with nothing but hope that its the best case scenario

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Shock horror! Game between two of bottom three wasnt brilliant. 

They werent brilliant 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, or in other sports.

But personally I enjoyed it.

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My thoughts on the structure as it exists now and as it may exist soon.

It is quite likely that Superleague will have only nine English teams, out of twelve, next season, with the strong probability that Toronto and Toulouse will be joining the top level. With talk of a New York team being 'fast tracked' into the competition in the near future, that will mean four teams in Superleague that bring no measurable away support with them. The remaining (by then) eight English teams will see their match day incomes drop further. An expansion to 14 teams is needed but with a significant increase in TV money in order to support all clubs, including the English ones. Whether Sky (or another provider - even Amazon!) would be willing to stump up is surely down to the negotiating skills of the RFL team.

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I was talking to a lad at work the other day about Argentinian Football (a weird one, I know) and how they decide their promotion and relegation. From what I gathered, their promotion and relegation is done on a three-year cycle where your position in the table is based upon your three year average.

So for example, say Widnes finished 2019 with 16 points, 2020 with 14 points and 2021 with 19 points, that gives them an average of 15.6 points for that three-year cycle and lets say Hull Kingston Rovers finished 2019 with 18 points, 2020 with 21 points and 2021 with 13 points they'd have a three-year average of 17.3 points and that would see Widnes relegated at the end of 2021, allowing, say, Halifax, who've won the promotion three-year average in the league below, to take their place.

Unorthodox, perhaps, however, I saw people on here expressing their displeasure at the possibility of one up, one down and then teams yo-yoing, as we saw with Cas and Salford under one of the many previous formats Super League has had, whereas a three-year cycle would enable teams to build something over a few years and wouldn't leave them facing the prospect of relegation the year after promotion and, IMO, would keep a competitive edge to the bottom end of Super League, giving games a meaning throughout the three-year cycle and leaving teams unable just to purely accept their fate of a bottom finish in Super League and wait for the following year, every point and every result would matter. 

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2 hours ago, iffleyox said:

Aye, but there's the rub. Everyone knows the current system isn't working (from academies right through to SL itself), but vested interest means all we'll end up with is a different version of broken. Smaller SL clubs won't go for anything that'll cast them into the outer darkness, and the top clubs won't go for anything that doesn't produce a situation where eg Wigan and Saints get to be at the top table.*

Whilst I think @BigPicture is off in the realms of fantasy (inasmuch as what he's advocating isn't going to happen) it's difficult to see how if you were designing a sport from scratch to take on the global consciousness you'd have any of the current SL sides in it except (possibly) Leeds.

Anything which isn't a franchising of spots to high profile cities in the northern hemisphere is back to deckchair re-arranging. However, doing that (which I don't want to do) would kill the sport. I've never been so close to advocating a retreat to the M62 as I find myself in this post - largely because basically everything else is a non-starter. Maybe we just need to be a regional sport and be happy with that.

*and there are people in the North who couldn't find those two on maps, let alone the rest of the world.

I get where you're coming from, and clearly a big group within the game and its supporters wants a regional M62-based structure minus the Londons, Torontos, etc.  It's apparent to me that the administrators and supporters in that group won't accept anything more than the "deckchair re-arranging" as you put it.

I see no reason why the traditional clubs can't all play in a northern regional league just as they always did, while a new and completely separate franchised league based in big world-class comes into being to accommodate the Londons, Torontos, etc. and to preserve RL as a professional game in the northern hemisphere which can't be done by regional leagues nowadays.  Other than the regional league no longer being at the top of pyramid, nothing else would change.

Edited by Big Picture

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I like the 8s structure. However, my team (Newcastle Thunder) isn't in Superleague YET! Therefore, I don't have the 'worry' that the structure might lead to a greater chance of my team being relegated, which seems to be behind most objections. I hope that the RFL gets a grip on this hijacking.

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Lost the will/ability to keep up with this thread, but are the SL clubs looking to make the most out of possible new income from Canadian and French TV/advertising if Toronto and Toulouse go up?

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2 hours ago, Lobbygobbler said:

Also most revenues are generated by sky cash and many sky subscribers (for RL) are in towns with championship teams. I would bet that less than 50% of sky subscribers for RL come from SL towns.

A few years ago it was claimed that +/- 50% of SL viewers on Sky were from the south of England. That would mean that very few of them have a RL team of any description in their town.

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So after 100+ years of innovation, SL has the same structure as RU (12 teams, one up, one down, play-off then GF).

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I personally don't think these few owners are going to back off now they have finally taken the step for change,

There are some good posts on here and as may be expected they generally fall into 2 camps, one side being labelled self serving, money grabbing people who care only about their own club, The lower of these being just so frightened of relegation that they dare not do anything other than what they are told.

As i have said before , If i had put a few million into the game via a particular club i probably would have the interests of that club well up on my list as well ( just as every single poster on here would ( if they are being honest )

The thing is thought that for many on here they should be happy to pour in money for the good of the game , They should be happy to keep supporting the rest of a failing game That expects to be supported with the earnings of these greedy clubs because Rugby league is not just about S League, It's about their own particular club, well disguised by words like the greater good of the game etc.

Sooner or later people are going to have to face up to the fact that what this game is really about is SKY money, Without that we have no game, so the first priority is about providing sky with what they want. I think the have demonstrated well enough in the past that what they want is super league, So much as i hate to see clubs folding, It's going to happen simply because to get more money from Sky you have to improve what you sell them which in turn means more money for SL and less for the rest.

When you finally get the best teams for S L ( whoever those teams are ) there will always be some who dominate, there always have been, And crowds will be a nice extra for the better teams but will not determine who those teams are, Because Sky money is what really matters not crowds.

Huddersfield are a good example, I have no idea what their future is , But despite having been to 2 Finals and won the league in the last 10 years or so, they are constantly derided for having low crowds ( even though they are far from the lowest ) by people who probably just need to make themselves feel better. The point being that it's having money that matters as in most things in life.

The bottom line of all this is SL has to go forward any way it can, and there is not enough money to be earned to fund the rest of Rugby league, It has to find a way to keep it's self or go down the pan, SL needs to control it's own destiny, I have more faith in the so called Cabal to take us forward than i do in the RFL.

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4 minutes ago, GIANTSTRIDES said:

I personally don't think these few owners are going to back off now they have finally taken the step for change,

There are some good posts on here and as may be expected they generally fall into 2 camps, one side being labelled self serving, money grabbing people who care only about their own club, The lower of these being just so frightened of relegation that they dare not do anything other than what they are told.

As i have said before , If i had put a few million into the game via a particular club i probably would have the interests of that club well up on my list as well ( just as every single poster on here would ( if they are being honest )

The thing is thought that for many on here they should be happy to pour in money for the good of the game , They should be happy to keep supporting the rest of a failing game That expects to be supported with the earnings of these greedy clubs because Rugby league is not just about S League, It's about their own particular club, well disguised by words like the greater good of the game etc.

Sooner or later people are going to have to face up to the fact that what this game is really about is SKY money, Without that we have no game, so the first priority is about providing sky with what they want. I think the have demonstrated well enough in the past that what they want is super league, So much as i hate to see clubs folding, It's going to happen simply because to get more money from Sky you have to improve what you sell them which in turn means more money for SL and less for the rest.

When you finally get the best teams for S L ( whoever those teams are ) there will always be some who dominate, there always have been, And crowds will be a nice extra for the better teams but will not determine who those teams are, Because Sky money is what really matters not crowds.

Huddersfield are a good example, I have no idea what their future is , But despite having been to 2 Finals and won the league in the last 10 years or so, they are constantly derided for having low crowds ( even though they are far from the lowest ) by people who probably just need to make themselves feel better. The point being that it's having money that matters as in most things in life.

The bottom line of all this is SL has to go forward any way it can, and there is not enough money to be earned to fund the rest of Rugby league, It has to find a way to keep it's self or go down the pan, SL needs to control it's own destiny, I have more faith in the so called Cabal to take us forward than i do in the RFL.

I have more faith in Muffin the Mule to take us forward than “The RFL”. That is what makes the present situation so worrying.

The cabal is looking after its own interests, for sure. But who the hell is looking after the interests of the wider game? Once again, I find myself struggling to disagree with what you post.

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51 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I was talking to a lad at work the other day about Argentinian Football (a weird one, I know) and how they decide their promotion and relegation. From what I gathered, their promotion and relegation is done on a three-year cycle where your position in the table is based upon your three year average.

So for example, say Widnes finished 2019 with 16 points, 2020 with 14 points and 2021 with 19 points, that gives them an average of 15.6 points for that three-year cycle and lets say Hull Kingston Rovers finished 2019 with 18 points, 2020 with 21 points and 2021 with 13 points they'd have a three-year average of 17.3 points and that would see Widnes relegated at the end of 2021, allowing, say, Halifax, who've won the promotion three-year average in the league below, to take their place.

Unorthodox, perhaps, however, I saw people on here expressing their displeasure at the possibility of one up, one down and then teams yo-yoing, as we saw with Cas and Salford under one of the many previous formats Super League has had, whereas a three-year cycle would enable teams to build something over a few years and wouldn't leave them facing the prospect of relegation the year after promotion and, IMO, would keep a competitive edge to the bottom end of Super League, giving games a meaning throughout the three-year cycle and leaving teams unable just to purely accept their fate of a bottom finish in Super League and wait for the following year, every point and every result would matter. 

Didn’t the Argentinians introduce that system to avoid their two biggest clubs, River Plate and Boca Juniors, from getting relegated?

It was certainly controversial.

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At the end of the day, this could be the last throw of the dice for RL. The SL is the product, and it will be the product that kills the game. The lower tiers must be released from this dictatorship,for the good of the game.

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4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Shock horror! Game between two of bottom three wasnt brilliant. 

They werent brilliant 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, or in other sports.

But personally I enjoyed it.

Aye, Russia - Saudi Arabia was absolutely awful but all you will read are positives. If 

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2 hours ago, SL17 said:

At the end of the day, this could be the last throw of the dice for RL. The SL is the product, and it will be the product that kills the game. The lower tiers must be released from this dictatorship,for the good of the game.

Are you suggesting SL goes its own way and none of the money it generates goes to the lower leagues?  If you are, I fail to see how that helps anyone apart from SL.

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6 hours ago, nadera78 said:

A few years ago it was claimed that +/- 50% of SL viewers on Sky were from the south of England. That would mean that very few of them have a RL team of any description in their town.

It could well be a provide a different picture these days re viewing figures for various sports, before one subscribed to Sky Sports en-bloc, today you can choose the channels you wish to recieve, in my case it would be Arena and Action just for the RL, it would not be definative who soley buys for RL but it could be narrowed down better I would think. 

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