scotchy1

League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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4 hours ago, Spidey said:

That will not happen, it’ll be repeated and repeated and be claimed as fact

It worked for Trump though so it is a proven method unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

One advantage of SL separating from the RFL is that the RFL can really get to grips with the amateur and particularly the school game. Having gone myself to a committed Rugby union playing school (2 teams in every year group) I can only say how vastly important school sport should be to the RFL; especially with declining amateur participation in clubs.

Yes the RFU have private schools who basically do a lot for them (we had weekly fixtures from September to March), but the RFL should be getting more done to ensure RL is being played in schools across the country by providing a framework to work in. Without contested scrums and lineouts its arguably more suited to schools anyhow, even in the south. Hopefully this would be done on a British wide effort too.

Leeds Rhinos Foundation seem to do a good job.... they have quite a number of development officers paid via Foundation... funds coming from Rhinos, their  sponsors and individuals and added to the cake some Sky Try monies.  Plus the schools themselves who have monies to spend on outside activities for the school - Leeds Rhinos foundation have a package that they offer and for which many schools subscribe.

If the clubs all did as well, no doubt some may be better  together with the RFL in different catchment area's would help.

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2 hours ago, Krzzystuff said:

People will want to play for TWP or they will see us beating their beloved local teams and they will get inspired to pick up the ball and stop the scourge of those Canadian Wolves and join their local academies!!!

It will be similar to how we bring no away fans but somehow boost crowds for our away games none the less. :good:

Honestly though players need to be paid more in order to be tempted to pursue the pro game. It is a tough and demanding game that pays very poorly for the average player, that's what needs to be fixed to bring up participation numbers. How high is football participation in the UK vs. how many English academy players they have in the top tier? 

I will always disagree with anyone who claims other nationals as their own, I may be wrong in other peoples eyes, but it is my opinion, if an Australian or a Kiwi or a South Sea Islander or a Frenchman comes to my club they will always be just that, a foreign national who happens to plying his trade at my club, I have also no time whatsoever in any sport who hides behind the sham of 'heritage' 1st generation just about acceptable but residency rule, what is all that about?

As for your second paragraph, sorry I am not in a position to answer you, I have very little time for the round ball game I find it abhorrently boring and see or read very little about it, just because it is the World Cup I have tuned into a couple of games but not lasted more than 10 mins.

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I will always disagree with anyone who claims other nationals as their own, I may be wrong in other peoples eyes, but it is my opinion, if an Australian or a Kiwi or a South Sea Islander or a Frenchman comes to my club they will always be just that, a foreign national who happens to plying his trade at my club, I have also no time whatsoever in any sport who hides behind the sham of 'heritage' 1st generation just about acceptable but residency rule, what is all that about?

As for your second paragraph, sorry I am not in a position to answer you, I have very little time for the round ball game I find it abhorrently boring and see or read very little about it, just because it is the World Cup I have tuned into a couple of games but not lasted more than 10 mins.

What about dual citizens Harry...how do they fit in?

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1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

What about dual citizens Harry...how do they fit in?

Are they not virtually 1st generation K'man? useually born in another country from their parents so they will have 2 passports, Corrections welcome.

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Are they not virtually 1st generation K'man? useually born in another country from their parents so they will have 2 passports, Corrections welcome.

If you got the passport and your name is on it are you not a full citizen?

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16 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

If they do all well and good but do they use Leigh club to provide coaching to every child at all schools, and use the players to be designated ambassadors to each amateur team. The crucial part of this is using the facilities and personal of the club to help reach the goals the foundation sets, if the community trust does good.

Essentially Yes

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14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Featherstone Rovers set this up to copy SL clubs when they were trying to be an SL club. Sheffield Eagles did the same. Now let me have answers, how many Sheffield born lads are now superleague players after Sheffield Eagles 34 year tenure in the Rugby Football League? When Wakefield and Castleford already have highly funded Foundations feeding academies, how effective is a third Foundation at Fev with little funding in the same Calder area going to be??

Fev are down to one major Junior club at the Fev Lions, and matches are attended by scouts from Cas, Wakey, Leeds and Hull. It's impossible for Rovers to come into Superleague and do anything but import the whole team. They had ONE success in Hardaker and made £100K off that they spent. I think I will be waiting a long time for answers here.....

Look it up man. After 12 years in Superleague Catalans run with only a handful of French players in their team. Again they import 12 overseas SL quality players to be able to field a competetive team. It's true. Yes French players do not all go to Catalans. Springer, Fages, Miloudi, Escare and Navarete are at other SL clubs, but after 12 years in Superleague there are only enough quality French lads for one team. So why are you telling me Toulouse should be in SL?

They would have to buy in a whole SL quality squad from overseas, whilst neither contributing to the professional player pool NOR contributing any TV money. TWP won't contribute one player or one TV $dollar if they go up either.

Now for London. They have been in the League 38 years. 20 of them as a Superleague club. Their player production line gave us Caton-Brown, McMeekin, Clubb, LMS and Sarginson. That is about it. One top player every few years. They continue with Player production yet the latest crop of lads like Walker, Channing, Lovell, Adebaye and Bienek are only fringe players at a Championship club. The first team is mainly M62. Bietnek may be the next London SL player but that's it.

What you and other people on here do is believe if you expand the geography of Superleague you will expand the player pool. But this is not borne out by the facts. The fact is that our player production structure is along the M62 and that feeds Superleague the bulk of the home grown players. Yes Salford don't do this any more,  so Leigh should get their place and the funding to grow their "token" foundation and take it into the Salford area and other areas.

The analysis of player production is something I've posted many times in detail, but it doesn't suit our world domination fantasies. You cannot open clubs away from the M62 and shut down clubs with well funded professional foundations feeding academies here.  It would kill our roots.

Parky , again , what is a ' development foundation ' as that is what you suggest the SL and 3 other clubs have ?

A ' token ' foundation at Leigh , again explain , what you mean by this term ?

You can ignore for ever if you want , but I'll keep asking , and the more I ask that you ignore the more stupid you will appear

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12 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Parky , again , what is a ' development foundation ' as that is what you suggest the SL and 3 other clubs have ?

A ' token ' foundation at Leigh , again explain , what you mean by this term ?

You can ignore for ever if you want , but I'll keep asking , and the more I ask that you ignore the more stupid you will appear

Well the Foundation affiliated to one of those three non-SL clubs is a registered charity.  I suspect the rest are too? So that very much circumscribes the scope of its activities.  Do I take it our garrulous (in the Ignore bin) friend has been going off on one again?  Or maybe getting confused with the academies?

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1 minute ago, Adeybull said:

Well the Foundation affiliated to one of those three non-SL clubs is a registered charity.  I suspect the rest are too? So that very much circumscribes the scope of its activities.  Do I take it our garrulous (in the Ignore bin) friend has been going off on one again?  Or maybe getting confused with the academies?

Its up to him to answer that question , I'll keep asking him till the cows come home

To me it would be interesting for a registered charity to be funding proffessional player development , but i might be wrong

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30 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Its up to him to answer that question , I'll keep asking him till the cows come home

To me it would be interesting for a registered charity to be funding proffessional player development , but i might be wrong

Has he poured insults at you yet? That was why I binned him, not because of his lengthy outpourings.

And anyway, I know for a fact one registered charity that does not!  And whose constitution indeed does not allow it to.  So our friend cannot have been referring to club foundations, can he...?

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23 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

1. The work of foundations aren't focused on elite player development. 

2. It's also dumb as hell the this argument regarding player development and Toulouse/Toronto still gets promulgated when 3 clubs in SL don't run their own academys and only two in the lower leagues do. It's idiotic that people talk about not letting Toronto in because they don't yet produce their own players but instead we need to keep swapping other clubs that alsondont produce players. 

3. how ridiculous it is to group Toulouse and Toronto together in this regard

1. Of course Foundations are about player development, elite players are the one in a hundred kids that make it. So the more kids we can engage the more elite players. Why can’t you grasp something as easy as that?

The idea that the SL foundations are just charities and nothing to do with player (and fan) development is absurd. As RL Express reported SKY’s payment of £17.8 Million was actually for “Coaching” (not for giving away to charity - are you and Adeybull serious??) and as per the Leeds Foundation they clearly state they work alongside primary and secondary schools, community clubs and run holiday rugby camps and rugby festivals. That’s seriously funded young player development. Here’s Wigan Foundations mission statement To promote community participation in Rugby League” clear enough? The Hull FC foundation works closely with the club to drive participation and engagement in the sport, helping to nurture players and fans of the future”. Do we all get it now?

The foundations date back before SKY and diversify what they do to register as charities as they can get government grants for projects that help youngsters. Dave T and Adeybull may pretend that the emergence of foundations in the early 2000’s were purely all about charity (which again is absurd - why would they do that?) and nothing at all to do with promoting the game to local kids. However activities that are non-RL done by RL clubs for kids clearly still does the job indirectly of introducing the kids to the game and the clubs, and these foundations reach literally thousands of kids. So pull the other one gentlemen. It's got bells on it.....

2. It’s a shocking argument to say TWP should be allowed in because they are just as useless at developing players as other clubs. Again you forget that SL bosses still maintain that any clubs promotion is “subject to standards”.

I do not recognise your idea “3 clubs in SL don't run their own academys”??  either - Salford are the only club to fully abandon the academy and they are skint and won’t last too long in SL. As it stands Leigh who would open an academy, and Bradford would be acceptable replacements.

3. You are back to ignoring key points to make an argument fit. Even Perez himself stated that TWP are pointless on their own because the whole point here was that it would take at least five NA clubs to bring in a $Billion dollar TV deal. So what is the point of TWP on their own if they can't produce any SL players OR bring in a TV deal and THOSE were Lenegans exact stated problems he had with Toulouse's SL bid, which is exactly why they are “grouped” with TWP.

Edited by The Parksider

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Parky, your suggestion that Foundations are simply a conveyor belt for Academies is what people are disgareeing with. 

Of course Foundations run RL activity, they are charities of RL clubs, it would be perverse not to, and the Sky Try scheme that Sky fund is a nice way of getting more kids exposed to RL.

But if I had an elite RL player pathway charity that was spending time on art projects, disability projects, dance classes etc. Id be wonderibg how that is working towards feeding the Academy.

The Foundations are about community engagement, something Elstone is a huge fan of, rather than being an Academy feeder system.

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

1. Of course Foundations are about player development, elite players are the one in a hundred kids that make it. So the more kids we can engage the more elite players. Why can’t you grasp something as easy as that?

The idea that the SL foundations are just charities and nothing to do with player (and fan) development is absurd. As RL Express reported SKY’s payment of £17.8 Million was actually for “Coaching” (not for giving away to charity - are you and Adeybull serious??) and as per the Leeds Academy, they clearly state they work alongside primary and secondary schools, community clubs and run holiday rugby camps and rugby festivals. That’s seriously funded young player development. Here’s Wigan Foundations mission statement To promote community participation in Rugby League” clear enough? The Hull FC foundation works closely with the club to drive participation and engagement in the sport, helping to nurture players and fans of the future”. Do we all get it now?

The foundations date back before SKY and diversify what they do to register as charities as they can get government grants for projects that help youngsters. Dave T and Adeybull may pretend that the emergence of foundations in the early 2000’s were purely all about charity (which again is absurd - why would they do that?) and nothing at all to do with promoting the game to local kids. However activities that are non-RL done by RL clubs for kids clearly still does the job indirectly of introducing the kids to the game and the clubs, and these foundations reach literally thousands of kids. So pull the other one gentlemen. It's got bells on it.....

2. It’s a shocking argument to say TWP should be allowed in because they are just as useless at developing players as other clubs. Again you forget that SL bosses still maintain that any clubs promotion is “subject to standards”.

I do not recognise your idea “3 clubs in SL don't run their own academys”??  either - Salford are the only club to fully abandon the academy and they are skint and won’t last too long in SL. As it stands Leigh who would open an academy, and Bradford would be acceptable replacements.

3. You are back to ignoring key points to make an argument fit. Even Perez himself stated that TWP are pointless on their own because the whole point here was that it would take at least five NA clubs to bring in a $Billion dollar TV deal. So what is the point of TWP on their own if they can't produce any SL players OR bring in a TV deal and THOSE were Lenegans exact stated problems he had with Toulouse's SL bid, which is exactly why they are “grouped” with TWP.

The term YOU used was development foundation , explain exactly please , or admit there is no such thing

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

1. Of course Foundations are about player development, elite players are the one in a hundred kids that make it. So the more kids we can engage the more elite players. Why can’t you grasp something as easy as that?

The idea that the SL foundations are just charities and nothing to do with player (and fan) development is absurd. As RL Express reported SKY’s payment of £17.8 Million was actually for “Coaching” (not for giving away to charity - are you and Adeybull serious??) and as per the Leeds Foundation they clearly state they work alongside primary and secondary schools, community clubs and run holiday rugby camps and rugby festivals. That’s seriously funded young player development. Here’s Wigan Foundations mission statement To promote community participation in Rugby League” clear enough? The Hull FC foundation works closely with the club to drive participation and engagement in the sport, helping to nurture players and fans of the future”. Do we all get it now?

The foundations date back before SKY and diversify what they do to register as charities as they can get government grants for projects that help youngsters. Dave T and Adeybull may pretend that the emergence of foundations in the early 2000’s were purely all about charity (which again is absurd - why would they do that?) and nothing at all to do with promoting the game to local kids. However activities that are non-RL done by RL clubs for kids clearly still does the job indirectly of introducing the kids to the game and the clubs, and these foundations reach literally thousands of kids. So pull the other one gentlemen. It's got bells on it.....

2. It’s a shocking argument to say TWP should be allowed in because they are just as useless at developing players as other clubs. Again you forget that SL bosses still maintain that any clubs promotion is “subject to standards”.

I do not recognise your idea “3 clubs in SL don't run their own academys”??  either - Salford are the only club to fully abandon the academy and they are skint and won’t last too long in SL. As it stands Leigh who would open an academy, and Bradford would be acceptable replacements.

3. You are back to ignoring key points to make an argument fit. Even Perez himself stated that TWP are pointless on their own because the whole point here was that it would take at least five NA clubs to bring in a $Billion dollar TV deal. So what is the point of TWP on their own if they can't produce any SL players OR bring in a TV deal and THOSE were Lenegans exact stated problems he had with Toulouse's SL bid, which is exactly why they are “grouped” with TWP.

i already regret engaging you but listen up. You are about to learn something.

1. You are wrong. Foundations have existed for a long time as the community outreach arm of clubs. They arent a conveyor belt for academies, if they were running holiday camps for 6 year olds would be a pretty dumb way of going about it.

Foundations are there to engage and create participation in ALL its forms with the local community. It is the route for things like masters, PDRL, touch, and things like as mentioned rugby festivals, holiday camps, school participation etc etc etc.

It is also a programme to use RL for positive social good, so things like engaging fans in healthy eating, healthy living and exercise, mental health, training and education for young people.

Leeds Rhinos are running an event to educate people on the overuse of antibiotics. What has that got to do with elite RL player development? Obviously nothing.

They run campaigns on getting old people more active. What as that got to do with elite RL Player development? again, quite obviously nothing.

SKYtry is something different.

In 2015, due to the RFL's terrible performance in increasing participation, Sport England cut the sports funding and demanded changes to the way the money they did give was spent. SKYtry was the games response. It routes some of the sport England funding through the clubs charitable foundations AND also created the opportunity for Sky to make a charitable donation (which is a more efficient way of funding this area for the obvious reasons) to the foundations.

Even SKYtry though is not specifically about elite player development. Simply giving kids not only a chance but a route to playing.

It is not just factually wrong to describe foundations as an effort of elite player development. It ignores that most of what the foundations do is far more important, far more worthy and does far more good.

2. Salford, Hull and Hull KR do not run their own academies. Clubs outside SL do not run SL standard academies (in the main). That Toronto do not produce players yet is irrelevant to their participation in SL because none of their rivals do either.

3. For most people, with working minds, there is a long distance between pointless and counterproductive and billion dollar tv deal.

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On 22 June 2018 at 7:34 AM, The Parksider said:

When Wakefield and Castleford already have highly funded Foundations feeding academies, how effective is a third Foundation at Fev with little funding in the same Calder area going to be??

 Leigh should get their place and the funding to grow their "token" foundation and take it into the Salford area and other areas.

well funded professional foundations feeding academies here.  It would kill our roots.

" Highly funded foundations feeding academies "

Leighs ' token ' foundation won RL Foundation of the year 2015

" Well funded foundations feeding academies "

Parky , Explain ?

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Going back to the original course of this thread, any new structure has to make greater allowances for Internationals. 

Not only are they the best way to spread the game to "neutrals", it also gives non RL folk someone natural to support - a point I think is key in any expansion venture. 

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18 hours ago, redjonn said:

Leeds Rhinos Foundation seem to do a good job.... they have quite a number of development officers paid via Foundation... funds coming from Rhinos, their  sponsors and individuals and added to the cake some Sky Try monies.  Plus the schools themselves who have monies to spend on outside activities for the school - Leeds Rhinos foundation have a package that they offer and for which many schools subscribe.

If the clubs all did as well, no doubt some may be better  together with the RFL in different catchment area's would help.

Your right, at least you need to get every school in RL areas playing RL.

I went to a school in North Leeds about 3 miles from Headingley and I had to play RU. 

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14 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

In this battle of semantics did Parky not just mean Scholarships

No. If you want semantics try this guy below. I await both clubs being relegated for failing to meet standards.

15 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Hull and Hull KR do not run their own academies.

😂

16 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The term YOU used was development foundation , explain exactly please

Look it up. The Leeds foundation website lists all the community clubs kids can go and play at and full details of 23 clubs are listed. It lists Five RL development officers and a development manager (alongside 26 other staff) all under the @Leedsrhinosfoundation banner.

The foundation says it is responsible for organising the half time mini games at Headingley which the kids love and other kids see. The foundation goes into schools and community clubs and promotes the junior game to keep the numbers up. It holds rugby camps and festivals to introduce new kids to the game, so it assists the community clubs indirectly. Latest developments include Leeds Leopards where a local guy near me was delighted to tell me his lad was scouted by Wakefield.

This lad could then go on to be a professional for Wakefield. It’s not hard to deduce that at Leeds the “Foundation” is inextricably linked to achieving the goal of the “Development” of more professional players, registered charity or not. "Development foundation" describes it perfectly.

Down at Sheffield Eagles their foundation is on a lot lower level, and I mean a lot lower. Again look it up. It survives on grants and donations. I therefore do not feel that it is unfair to call this a “token” foundation. The point here is about the idea that only the SKY money differentiates clubs and so there can be automatic P & R without any damage to the clubs. But my point was it would be foolish to relegate Leeds and their “development foundation” (for that is what it is) and with respect promote Sheffield Eagles running only a “token” foundation (for that is exactly what theirs is) effort.

Edited by The Parksider

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15 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Going back to the original course of this thread, any new structure has to make greater allowances for Internationals. 

Not only are they the best way to spread the game to "neutrals", it also gives non RL folk someone natural to support - a point I think is key in any expansion venture. 

Would you like the internationals on terrestrial tv or sky?

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7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

No. If you want semantics try this guy below. I await both clubs being relegated for failing to meet standards.

😂

Look it up. The Leeds foundation website lists all the community clubs kids can go and play at and full details of 23 clubs are listed. It lists Five RL development officers and a development manager (alongside 26 other staff) all under the @Leedsrhinosfoundation banner.

The foundation says it is responsible for organising the half time mini games at Headingley which the kids love and other kids see. The foundation goes into schools and community clubs and promotes the junior game to keep the numbers up. It holds rugby camps and festivals to introduce new kids to the game, so it assists the community clubs indirectly. Latest developments include Leeds Leopards where a local guy near me was delighted to tell me his lad was scouted by Wakefield.

This lad could then go on to be a professional for Wakefield. It’s not hard to deduce that at Leeds the “Foundation” is inextricably linked to achieving the goal of the “Development” of more professional players, registered charity or not. "Development foundation" describes it perfectly.

Down at Sheffield Eagles their foundation is on a lot lower level, and I mean a lot lower. Again look it up. It survives on grants and donations. I therefore do not feel that it is unfair to call this a “token” foundation. The point here is about the idea that only the SKY money differentiates clubs and so there can be automatic P & R without any damage to the clubs. But my point was it would be foolish to relegate Leeds and their “development foundation” (for that is what it is) and with respect promote Sheffield Eagles running only a “token” foundation (for that is exactly what theirs is) effort.

At last , so finally there is no such thing as a development foundation , the majority of clubs both in SL and the lower tiers run ' foundations ' or ' trusts ' in some cases that do COMMUNITY work to varying degree,s depending quite often on the size and profile of those clubs

There is no reason why [ as these foundations or trusts are mostly now registered charities and source funds from outside their general club finances ] any club relegated out of SL would stop doing exactly what they currently do , it may reduce in size if that club remained outside the top tier , but as Newtons law dictates there would be an opposite and equal increase in the work done by the promoted club

To suggest that any club other than Leeds and therefore with less profile does only a ' token ' effort is an insult to that club , its owners and staff

So basically you were talking ' BULL '

Scholarships and academies are a different area , with different problems , once again much easier for high profile clubs to run succssesfully to produce players , you also know this as well , but I'm sure you wont post on here the reasons why many lower tier clubs have stopped running them , that wouldnt fit your agenda

You are welcome to have the last word on the subject , I wont comment again

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