Dual registration discussion (Merged Threads)

[newbe]

If S/L want a bigger slice of the pie, then maybe championship an league 1 clubs should refuse to take S/L players on D/R. Let super league look after all their own players. 

[ELBOWSEYE]

I would back this but not for your reasons, it will make all clubs run a reserve side. 

[terrywebbisgod]

I know Reg and he doesn't like duels,especially pistols at dawn.

[Spidey]

Just now, ELBOWSEYE said:

I would back this but not for your reasons, it will make all clubs run a reserve side. 

Yep, most supporters want this anyway. Both SL & Champ alike

[Manx RL]

15 minutes ago, newbe said:

If S/L want a bigger slice of the pie, then maybe championship an league 1 clubs should refuse to take S/L players on D/R. Let super league look after all their own players. 

Is that refuse them after begging for them?

[roughyedspud]

The problem with SL clubs wanting a bigger slice of the pie is that all the pie isn't theirs!

Yes the headline is " SL sign new TV deal" but the deal also includes championship,league 1,challenge cup & England international rights..

 

The five-year deal breaks down as follows:

The amount being paid for club and international matches will be £182,200,000 in total.

Of that total, £146,760,000, or 80 per cent, will go to Super League clubs.

£14,576,000 or 8 per cent, will go to the twelve Championship clubs in the second tier.

£1,822,000, or one per cent, will go to the Championship One clubs.

£20,042,000, or 11 per cent, will be paid for Challenge Cup and internationals coverage.

For that, Sky Sports will broadcast 71 Super League games per season, 17 Championship games and one Championship one game, while they will also broadcast eleven Challenge Cup games.

Not all the TV money is for them...I'm all for SL clubs having every penny of a SL TV deal but other monies are not for them to dictate where it goes...

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Spidey said:

Yep, most supporters want this anyway. Both SL & Champ alike

Not really! The loan option is always available.

[kiyan]

3 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

The problem with SL clubs wanting a bigger slice of the pie is that all the pie isn't theirs!

Yes the headline is " SL sign new TV deal" but the deal also includes championship,league 1,challenge cup & England international rights..

 

 

The reality is that SL could have signed  the exact same deal without any of the rest.

Despite having the rights, how many Championship or league 1 games have they shown?

Challenge Cup games are with the BBC and has nothing to do with SL.

You should ask yourself how RU has managed to get itself on the BBC live nationally with the 6 nations , BBC live Regionally in Scotland, Wales and NI for regional teams  all FTA (Free To Air), BT AND Sky Sport live for the AP, Highlights and some live games on C5 (FTA) and now the Wales tour on C4 (FTA)

Not forgetting that BBC NI show the "Schools Cup" live also FTA on 17rh March which is a bank holiday in Ireland.

In that mix exactly why do you think  Swinton ,  Barrow or Hunslet was an important factor to SKY and their television deal?

[Spidey]

3 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not really! The loan option is always available.

I meant most fans want reserves, and go back to loans

[DEANO]

Yes I think there should only be 12 sl clubs. If a new franchise is formed ie Toronto New York etc then lose the lowest club. Keep going so there is only Wigan Leeds and saints left. But hey why stop there just keep going till there’s only one club. You could call it team England. 

Not sure where all these players will come from though

[bobbruce]

7 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

The problem with SL clubs wanting a bigger slice of the pie is that all the pie isn't theirs!

Yes the headline is " SL sign new TV deal" but the deal also includes championship,league 1,challenge cup & England international rights..

 

 

At yet people say SL clubs do nothing for the game. Going of those figures nearly £17m is going to lower league clubs. Let’s not kid ourselves without SL Sky wouldn’t be paying a penny for these games as we’ve seen in the past. On top of those figures  through this deal nearly £18m is going into community RL.  

[sentoffagain2]

  So the Entire SKY  money equals the same as 1 World class football player,the game is smaller than i thought.

[Kris]

This.

£20,042,000, or 11 per cent, will be paid for Challenge Cup and internationals coverage

The only real growth area available - everything else is protectionism and the removal of business competition to a very worried top tier - they have failed to get their own houses in order  so for the good of the sport they are dictating what the sport should do

Playing in Sydney etc isn't the answer - the costs will be huge in the end and all to keep what they think they own alone

Elstone is a great appointment and talks a lot of sense but he is a CEO and is working bon behalf of 12 other people none of whom want to get relegated unless its a very controlled process - that they can control

the middle 8's have created a great deal of uncertainty which is what they were sold as doing, real jeopardy

There are clubs gearing up to run at SL and get in if they can - that's the problem, protectionism isn't the answer

If you re-structure the sport be honest from the start - 12 clubs, franchised, with only those who meet minimum standards off and on the field being considered for membership - everyone else may as well be a feeder club - if they survive in their current form at all

If we recollect what that actually did to the sport, being good enough on the field was not acceptable, the standards off the field altered every year, and lower tier clubs started to fall apart - that damage has been stopped to a large degree and the quality of rugby on show at that level has shot up

No wonder SL is worried

Unless Elstone has a big back pocket or can drive commercial opportunity to our door as a club sport where all those multi millionaires have already failed - and if you are telling me they haven't tried look at SLE as an organization within the game for a decade - all this is about is robbing peter to pay paul, closing your eyes and hoping its the right thing to do.

11% of the SKY money for a handful of internationals and poorly attended CC games

SLE own the players for internationals through the clubs - the RFL have the international game - if I was Elstone I would be looking to drive the RFL/RL brand and that starts with the international game - the reason he is here now is because there are other players in the world of RL now who have deep pockets and wide vision - hence the series of tests over the next few years in the USA with NZ and Eng and possibly Aus and Tonga - that means competition for control of the game and SLE have blinked

Elstone is a big enough hitter in sports administration to represent the sport on a bigger stage and that's brilliant - worryingly he should be the CEO of the RFL sand SLE but he isn't - say what you like about Big Nige he had the sports interest at heart and clearly found SLE and RFL governance at odds with each other

That is really very worrying for the whole sport

I want the game to thrive like we all do, and the spin SLE is putting on this is professional and is very very encouraging as a headline, but look deeper and admitting that you are telling a governing body what to do because you are the biggest asset in its portfolio is an attempt to take over the sports commercial development to the benefit of 12/13 clubs who will end up owning other clubs as feeders because they will be the only ones with any cash - this isn't soccer we don't have the depth of support commercially or from paying punters to float the rest of the game as viable in and of itself.

RL does however seem to have been able to strengthen clubs in the championship and below to create a more stable base than it has had for some time - again no wonder the SLE is worried - no one likes fair competition for places when you have had the lions share of the pie for so long

Elstone is being very clever asking for collaboration - that is not the same thing as willing cooperation and partnership moving towards a shared goal

I genuinely hope the nice sounding guy who is a massive Cas fan and had the opportunity to have a lot better paid job and profile in Soccer is here for the sport. He is obviously and demonstrably competent, knowledgeable and passionate. But he is a paid executive and as such represents 12 clubs own interests only. Its a missed opportunity for the sport not to have him as CEO of the RFL.

The damage to the sport as a whole he is capable of doing is only matched by the success he could bring. I have my fingers crossed.

Exciting times eh?

[nadera78]

9 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

The problem with SL clubs wanting a bigger slice of the pie is that all the pie isn't theirs!

Yes the headline is " SL sign new TV deal" but the deal also includes championship,league 1,challenge cup & England international rights..

 

 

Spud, no-one has ever paid a penny for Championship/League 1 TV rights. And that's going back 20 years. Do you honestly believe Sky are paying £16.4million for them now? It's a fantasy cooked up by Wood in order to funnel money into those competitions.

[John Drake]

To avoid this thread becoming another general discussion about league restructures, please keep to the specific issue of the pros and cons of dual registration in here.

Thanks.

[Bulliac]

Dual registration is a nonsense, in reality. It serves only to let clubs who don't run reserve teams give fringe players some game-time and, of course, to skew the lower divisions. Much of that criticism also applies to loans too, though loans are one way for clubs to overcome periods of injury to players. All clubs should play their part in player development by running reserve grade teams and then the 'need' for clubs to farm out their big squad numbers would 't exist,  also the championship and champ1 would be more genuine competitions.

[terrywebbisgod]

54 minutes ago, John Drake said:

To avoid this thread becoming another general discussion about league restructures, please keep to the specific issue of the pros and cons of dual registration in here.

Thanks.

Yeah,thanks for changing the threads title

[Damien]

4 hours ago, bobbruce said:

At yet people say SL clubs do nothing for the game. Going of those figures nearly £17m is going to lower league clubs. Let’s not kid ourselves without SL Sky wouldn’t be paying a penny for these games as we’ve seen in the past. On top of those figures  through this deal nearly £18m is going into community RL.  

Exactly. The lower leagues get far more at the moment than they would ever get from their own TV deal, that is if they would even get anything at all. 

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, Bulliac said:

Dual registration is a nonsense, in reality. It serves only to let clubs who don't run reserve teams give fringe players some game-time and, of course, to skew the lower divisions. Much of that criticism also applies to loans too, though loans are one way for clubs to overcome periods of injury to players. All clubs should play their part in player development by running reserve grade teams and then the 'need' for clubs to farm out their big squad numbers would 't exist,  also the championship and champ1 would be more genuine competitions.

I agree with the first part which describes the effect of DR, but it seems clear to me that if SL reserves teams were mandatory, this would destroy the Championship, not save it.  Because not only would they recall their DR players, but they'd have to recruit even more to run two teams - the union Premiership has 45 man squads for this very reason. And where would they come from? The Championship of course. And because these players would need to be full time, this would inevitably mean taking money from Championship too.

Seems a terrible waste to put 200 or so decent players into a reserve league which no-one will watch, when they could be strutting their stuff in front of fans in the fine competition that the Championship is. 

Maybe I'm missing something so happy to be corrected, but seems to me a SL reserve grade is by far a biggest threat to the lower leagues than all the other scare stories being floated around. I don't understand why many folk seem so keen on it. Far better to try and reform DR - perhaps minimum or maximum stints, limits on numbers etc - or whatever.

[David Shepherd]

Never liked DR

Either get shut of it, or charge Super League Europe Ltd £16.4M for keeping their fringe players fit.

[AB Knight]

Mixed feelings on DR. York have benefitted from it in recent seasons, when it's good it's good but it does disrupt a squad when players in key positions which have been filled on DR (full back, scrum half etc) aren't available as they've been called up by their parent club

In an ideal world I'd prefer to see all 3 leagues running reserve sides but it comes down to money - down in League 1, there's no way a club like Hemel could run a reserve team and fund away games at the likes of Newcastle, York etc...it's probably financially difficult enough for the main team playing regular season games up there.

As a short term measure, from 2019 I'd prefer to see a limit on DR to 2 players. If each club can only field 2 DR players it still allows them to play some quality players, without being accused of looking like a Super League reserve team.

Also this is probably for another discussion but I'd also like to see clubs made to field 2 players from that country - so Coventry have to field 2 English players, North Wales 2 Welsh players. That stops the situation we had last season whereby Toronto gave very little game time to Canadian players despite running away with the league and it means if there is a New York team, they have to play 2 American players which has to be good for the game over there.

[OriginalMrC]

Coventry Bears have today announced a DR agreement with Hull KR (this is in addition to the agreement KR have with York).

I am not a fan of DR in principle but several times this season the Bears have faced teams with DR players that have had a big influence on the game. While I don't think the club were going to consider DR I think its a case of if you can't beat them join them. Hopefully this agreement will benefit the Bears in competing better on the pitch but balanced against continuing to build a locally based squad. 

 

[milpool]

1 hour ago, OriginalMrC said:

Coventry Bears have today announced a DR agreement with Hull KR (this is in addition to the agreement KR have with York).

 

 

Good news, I look forward to strengthening our squad with a few Coventry players!

[John Drake]

4 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

I agree with the first part which describes the effect of DR, but it seems clear to me that if SL reserves teams were mandatory, this would destroy the Championship, not save it.  Because not only would they recall their DR players, but they'd have to recruit even more to run two teams - the union Premiership has 45 man squads for this very reason. And where would they come from? The Championship of course. And because these players would need to be full time, this would inevitably mean taking money from Championship too.

Seems a terrible waste to put 200 or so decent players into a reserve league which no-one will watch, when they could be strutting their stuff in front of fans in the fine competition that the Championship is. 

Maybe I'm missing something so happy to be corrected, but seems to me a SL reserve grade is by far a biggest threat to the lower leagues than all the other scare stories being floated around. I don't understand why many folk seem so keen on it. Far better to try and reform DR - perhaps minimum or maximum stints, limits on numbers etc - or whatever.

The challenge should be to increase the overall pool of players at every level, not just accept it is limited to what it is now and that it can never, ever grow.

The SL clubs can't have their cake and eat it too, by wanting to cut the rest of the game adrift from all the cash, as they seem to want to do, but still use it as a dumping ground for players they cannot accommodate in their first teams because they want to save the expense of running reserve sides.

It doesn't really improve the lower leagues to have players dropping in and out of it from SL on an irregular basis.

[Reverend Ram]

Just wonder that if we have to keep SE that it may be reformed so it is not between individuals clubs but a sort of draft system like in the US - all DR players are nominated at the start of the season and are put on a pool for central distribution on a best loaned to the worst basis- after all if we are trying to help the likes of the bears and raiders it may be a small step forward. Lots of detail to work out of course but maybe a different approach?