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Michael Ashton

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That seems easy to me TMF. The Club is owned by the debenture holders. The problem is that most of us own only a few debentures but some holders can hold as many as 25,000.

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6 hours ago, Michael Ashton said:

That seems easy to me TMF. The Club is owned by the debenture holders. The problem is that most of us own only a few debentures but some holders can hold as many as 25,000.

Thanks Michael, appreciate you are at least interested in who owns the club, but as has already been posted, one debenture holder equals one vote, regardless of how many debentures you own (except in a secret ballot?). That doesn't seem easy to me mate. Questions and no definitive answers. Let me throw a rhetorical question at you. As a debenture holder, as you presume, you are an owner. If the club, as a business, went bust owing a million pounds, (god forbid) what liabilities would you have? Not having a go Michael, but can you not see the thrust of my question

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I'm no lawyer or financial advisor but know little bits. If you hold shares in Bae Systems for example they may be ordinary or preferential or many other types maybe. If they are pref they might pay a guaranteed rate of divided every year. On the other they may be ordinary and the price will be quoted constantly on the stock exchange. The price will generally go up or down depending on the trading success of Bae.

Debentures are a bit different. The company has a debenture book and from time to time makes a sale of debentures to anybody interested in providing capital to Barrow RFL. This capital is kept and recorded and is not repayable. If at some stage the Club goes bust or sells it assets and the directors want to wind it up the company goes into liquidation and all the assets are sold and liabilities paid off. If there is a surplus the debenture holders are paid £1 for each debenture held. Any balance held this is distributable to local sports clubs etc.

The problem is that the debentures go back to 1930 and in that time a great many holders have either died or changed address. In the event of a winding up this would be a real problem. I was on the board in about 2001 and I intended to take on the job of sorting out years of debenture holdings but found it almost an impossible job.

I hope this makes sense.

 

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No, there is no payout. 

There is a liability on the Debenture holder of one shilling see attached screen shot from the Articles of Association. 

I wonder how many shillings would be raked in?

As I've said before this is all dependant on this being the ruling document, but it is the one on Companies House website. 

Go to Companies House on. gov.uk

Look up Barrow Rugby League

Look for documents

All the information is there.......... 

 

That's the trouble with facts..... 

Screenshot_20180909-175628.png

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Got it. Just kidding. I think Michael and 750VFR should have an arm wrestle. My shilling is on 750VFR but I might have sixpence each way on Michael. We'll never know the answer and i'll just keep giving my 10 Guineas at the gate. In other words, I give up.

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Now that's intriguing. In the words of Manuel...'I know nothing'. 

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1 hour ago, TMF said:

Now that's intriguing. In the words of Manuel...'I know nothing'. 

How much does it cost for me to buy a debenture?

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1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

How much does it cost for me to buy a debenture?

$2000 Canadian. Or two shillings to you.

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1 minute ago, TMF said:

$2000 Canadian. Or two shillings to you.

Okay...buy me the 2 shillings one...Bearman will pay ya.

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3 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Okay...buy me the 2 shillings one...Bearman will pay ya.

And I will.

I'm on the case. Leave it with me!!

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debenture is a medium- to long-term debt instrument used by large companies to borrow money, at a fixed rate of interest. The legal term "debenture" originally referred to a document that either creates a debt or acknowledges it, but in some countries the term is now used interchangeably with bondloan stock or note. A debenture is thus like a certificate of loan or a loan bond evidencing the fact that the company is liable to pay a specified amount with interest and although the money raised by the debentures becomes a part of the company's capital structure, it does not become share capital.[1]Senior debentures get paid before subordinate debentures, and there are varying rates of risk and payoff for these categories.

Debentures are generally freely transferable by the debenture holder. Debenture holders have no rights to vote in the company's general meetings of shareholders, but they may have separate meetings or votes e.g. on changes to the rights attached to the debentures. The interest paid to them is a charge against profit in the company's financial statements.

The term "debenture" is more descriptive than definitive. An exact and all-encompassing definition for a debenture has proved elusive. The English commercial judge, Lord Lindley, notably remarked in one case: "Now, what the correct meaning of ‘debenture’ is I do not know. I do not find anywhere any precise definition of it. We know that there are various kinds of instruments commonly called debentures

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The Articles tended to be periodically amended from 1930 onwards. A complete new set of Articles was filed with Companies House on 10th October 2014 following an  EGM. Among a number of changes the debentures were increased to £1 each. The relevant amount is paid by each holder before the debentures are issued

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Wow, all the posts are telling me nobody has a clue what a Debenture really is. Lord Lindley does't know, debenture holders have no rights, debenture is more descriptive than definitive, the relevant amount is paid to each holder before the debentures are issued, etc, etc. (Above posts)

I gave up on this post but others have a view, so I will ask the question again, Who owns BRLFC? Is it the Board, or the debenture holders? It's a simple question is it not?

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Simple question, yes.

Simple answer, not so sure. 

(Motorsport this w/e on the Continent so I'll miss the game but hoping for a win v Swinton). 

Screenshot_20180910-205257.png

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The Club has no shareholders, instead they have debenture holders who act as guarantors of the Club. The guarantors appoint a Board of Directors from within their number to run the Club on their behalf. So in answer to your question, the Debenture Holders act as custodians of Barrow RLFC. 

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Thanks Holty Snr, so the guarantors (you do realise what that means legally?) are the custodians responsible for all debts, or am I wrong? Again, I don't think anybody knows who owns BRLFC so i'll call an end to this post and just carry on supporting regardless. COYR.

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Don't carry on this forever but the debenture holders would only loose the amounts paid in the first place.

The directors are however personally liable fraud fraudulent dealings.

Let's change the subject and talk about our 2 new centers.

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3 hours ago, Michael Ashton said:

Don't carry on this forever but the debenture holders would only loose the amounts paid in the first place.

The directors are however personally liable fraud fraudulent dealings.

Let's change the subject and talk about our 2 new centers.

And speculate on how we will go in the CHAMPIONSHIP next term.

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