The middle 8s and the salary cap

[gnidir]

Hypothetical, but with the rush of signings coming from lower Superleague teams before the 8s, it poses a question:

With the knowledge that the Superleague door is likely to close at seasons end, if you were a club Chair, is the sensible things to break the salary cap in order to get your place at the table?

The question beyond this, is if you did that, would the other Superleague clubs kick you out when it came out?

 

With a business head on, I think if it were my club, I would be willing to roll the dice, spend most of next seasons cash and guarantee (As much as is possible) my place in the top flight. After all, the value of my club as a whole would be increased into the future should someone buy it. Its the most sensible way to protect my investment, there is no history of clubs being kicked out for cap breaches. So I would trade one season of a -10 point start, spend less on next years players knowing thats coming, take my top table payout and build for 2021 in the top flight.

 

Thoughts?......

[bobbruce]

Isn’t it a live cap now so it should be impossible to break the cap. Unless a club deliberately hides payments for me any club doing that should be relegated. 

[Eleftherios]

Didn't a certain top club break the cap to save themselves a few years back?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

Isn’t it a live cap now so it should be impossible to break the cap. Unless a club deliberately hides payments for me any club doing that should be relegated. 

Lots of ways to hide money. Not all brown envelopes. Do you think these top 5 clubs don’t invest in property.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

6 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Lots of ways to hide money. Not all brown envelopes. Do you think these top 5 clubs don’t invest in property.

I'm pretty sure that is covered in the cap... as are other gifts like cars.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

Isn’t it a live cap now so it should be impossible to break the cap. Unless a club deliberately hides payments for me any club doing that should be relegated. 

This.

If it came out that a club was concealing payments to save their status, they should be kicked out of the league immediately. 

They're in a qualifying competition. If they qualify by cheating, they shouldn't have qualified.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I'm pretty sure that is covered in the cap... as are other gifts like cars.

Not if the Club own them.

[gnidir]

well thats my point, if its a game of poker....

I would spend the Money now, regardless of rules and put the pressure on others to kick my club out. Do you think the clubs have the guile for that, and the law suit I would threaten if they did?

 

Again, its just a hypothetical, im trying to understand the mindset of the club owners in the same way Derek Beaumont is being sensible about his investment in Leigh being a bad bet,

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not if the Club own them.

They have a value, and that value will be deducted from the salary cap IIRC.

I'm pretty sure you're not the first one to think of this elaborate scheme to circumvent the salary cap.

[shaun mc]

I suspect that the RFL/SL do not now have the funds to fully embrace a Salary Cap Compliance department and audit every clubs books in detail

Salary Caps will be looked at piecemeal and at a fairly top level making them almost worthless

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, SL17 said:

Lots of ways to hide money. Not all brown envelopes. Do you think these top 5 clubs don’t invest in property.

All allowed for in the cap any club attempting to hide this sort of thing are deliberately cheating and should be punished accordingly. 

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, SL17 said:

Lots of ways to hide money. Not all brown envelopes. Do you think these top 5 clubs don’t invest in property.

In fact brown envelopes are probably a better way of doing it. Rather than easily traceable property or cars. 

[DavidM]

Does a salary cap work in general or just in theory ? A mate who isn’t an avid fan said if a cap is for a kind of equality how come the same teams are at the top and win the trophies and the same teams at the bottom very often 

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, gnidir said:

well thats my point, if its a game of poker....

I would spend the Money now, regardless of rules and put the pressure on others to kick my club out. Do you think the clubs have the guile for that, and the law suit I would threaten if they did?

 

Again, its just a hypothetical, im trying to understand the mindset of the club owners in the same way Derek Beaumont is being sensible about his investment in Leigh being a bad bet,

Clubs can’t go over the cap the RFL wouldn’t allow the player to be registered. Unless as I say they deliberately hide payment. 

[bobbruce]

1 hour ago, shaun mc said:

I suspect that the RFL/SL do not now have the funds to fully embrace a Salary Cap Compliance department and audit every clubs books in detail

Salary Caps will be looked at piecemeal and at a fairly top level making them almost worthless

The salary cap is run as a live cap so clubs have to declare payments to each player. Once a club reaches its cap limit for the season the RFL will refuse to register players to them if it would take them over. 

[bobbruce]

5 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Does a salary cap work in general or just in theory ? A mate who isn’t an avid fan said if a cap is for a kind of equality how come the same teams are at the top and win the trophies and the same teams at the bottom very often 

It was working when it was a flat cap once the first then the second marquee signing came in its pretty much useless as a leveller. Plus the teams at the top produce/sign the best youngsters again all off the cap. Plus the cap is only what you can spend on players. If Wigan and Leeds can spend £2m more on backroom staff and facilities than some clubs it makes a slightly lower wage more acceptable. 

[DavidM]

3 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

It was working when it was a flat cap once the first then the second marquee signing came in its pretty much useless as a leveller. Plus the teams at the top produce/sign the best youngsters again all off the cap. Plus the cap is only what you can spend on players. If Wigan and Leeds can spend £2m more on backroom staff and facilities than some clubs it makes a slightly lower wage more acceptable. 

Thanks , obviously a lot of factors behind it . I was hoping that wasn’t a stupid question !

[Guest]

10 hours ago, DavidM said:

Thanks , obviously a lot of factors behind it . I was hoping that wasn’t a stupid question !

The first 25 players with the highest wage are counted on the cap. That doesn't mean a club can't invest in property to support the imports. They have to live somewhere!  A club buying a house isn't a gift,it's an investment.. Who lives in it is another question?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

5 hours ago, SL17 said:

The first 25 players with the highest wage are counted on the cap. That doesn't mean a club can't invest in property to support the imports. They have to live somewhere!  A club buying a house isn't a gift,it's an investment.. Who lives in it is another question?

You really aren't getting this property thing are you?

You cannot just give a player a house. It counts in the cap. I'm pretty sure a player can rent a house on their own... they're adults! If they need help, the rental value of the property would be deducted from the cap.

So yes, it does mean a club can't invest in property. It will come off the cap. It is payment in kind. 

Next you'll be telling us about the wives working in the club shop...

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, bobbruce said:

It was working when it was a flat cap once the first then the second marquee signing came in its pretty much useless as a leveller. Plus the teams at the top produce/sign the best youngsters again all off the cap. Plus the cap is only what you can spend on players. If Wigan and Leeds can spend £2m more on backroom staff and facilities than some clubs it makes a slightly lower wage more acceptable. 

Was it?

On the basis of the question being that "only the same teams win the prizes year on year" if as you say it was working how come we have only had 4 winners of the GF in 19 years?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

You really aren't getting this property thing are you?

You cannot just give a player a house. It counts in the cap. I'm pretty sure a player can rent a house on their own... they're adults! If they need help, the rental value of the property would be deducted from the cap.

So yes, it does mean a club can't invest in property. It will come off the cap. It is payment in kind. 

Next you'll be telling us about the wives working in the club shop...

No you can't,but you can pay his mortgage off and rent it back to him..Totally legal.

No need to be bring tea ladies into the equation,they work hard for nowt.

Now are you getting it?

[Chamey]

On 7/27/2018 at 11:25 AM, Wellsy4HullFC said:

This.

If it came out that a club was concealing payments to save their status, they should be kicked out of the league immediately. 

They're in a qualifying competition. If they qualify by cheating, they shouldn't have qualified.

 

8 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

You really aren't getting this property thing are you?

You cannot just give a player a house. It counts in the cap. I'm pretty sure a player can rent a house on their own... they're adults! If they need help, the rental value of the property would be deducted from the cap.

So yes, it does mean a club can't invest in property. It will come off the cap. It is payment in kind. 

Next you'll be telling us about the wives working in the club shop...

I'm not privey the exact details of the SLE cap, but a recently very successful RU Prem team got round the cap by bringing players over from SA by promising them a farm back home when they retired, as well as very lucrative, low hours ambassadorial roles for when they finish playing. These transfers did not count against the cap for they happened after the player had finished playing for the club. Most of the loophole has now been closed, but I'd imagine that similar would work for RL clubs, until it got sniffed out.

[Moove]

38 minutes ago, SL17 said:

No you can't,but you can pay his mortgage off and rent it back to him..Totally legal.

No need to be bring tea ladies into the equation,they work hard for nowt.

Now are you getting it?

Well, except the paying off of the mortgage would class as a benefit to the player and would therefore be included in the salary cap. Even if you just paid their Netflix subscription that would count on the cap

[iffleyox]

8 minutes ago, Chamey said:

 

I'm not privey the exact details of the SLE cap, but a recently very successful RU Prem team got round the cap by bringing players over from SA by promising them a farm back home when they retired, as well as very lucrative, low hours ambassadorial roles for when they finish playing. 

I mean, I'm not sure why you didn't just name them given it's blindingly obvious who the club was from your description 

 

 

 

 

Orrell

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Moove said:

Well, except the paying off of the mortgage would class as a benefit to the player and would therefore be included in the salary cap. Even if you just paid their Netflix subscription that would count on the cap

They are buying his house,how can that count on the SC?