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Man of Kent

Women’s Challenge Cup Final

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16 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Hill misses conversion.

Leeds 20-14 Cas FT.

Congrats to Leeds!

Yes congrats to the winner but also Cas making a real game of it.

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Good game for the women's game. I hope it grows from here. I think I'll be going to next year's final. I went to the inaugural super league grand final at the Etihad and was impressed by the enthusiasm and passion on show. We need a strong women's game.

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In this age of everyone wanting to ensure they are politically correct and  having equality for all then the following comment might be taken by some as though I am against the womens' game ... but no, I fully support anything to promote RL, it's just that I wish to look at the overall picture concerning the game and not just how one particular element might be beneficial to promote themselves rather than the sport as a whole.

Yes, in it's own environment of the womens' game their Challenge Cup Final was a success but how does that particular game actually compare with similar occasions in the other aspects of the sport. True, I was not at the Final and have only seen clips of it on social media and therefore I would certainly not comment on the standard of play. However, I am sure that while the players most certainly gave 100% commitment to their cause, their abilities - and obvious physical qualities - would still not be really adequate enough to compete against many of even the lowest-ranked mens' amateur teams in the country.

No doubt the occasion ensured that the attendance at the womens' final may well have been more than is usual for a regular contest, yet it didn't really appear as though the numbers who watch matches in this league are any greater, if indeed anywhere equal to, those seen each week at amateur grounds throughout the country.

Again, these are not complaints about the womens' game itself  but is just a reality when comparing the two various aspects.

My overall point is that while some professional clubs - and this applies to many other sports throughout the country - are now trying to ensure they do not appear as a sexist, what return, financially or otherwise, do they expect to see for the money they might put into organising such teams ? Furthermore would they actually spend the same on other projects which would bring in that same return to the club as their womens' teams and have they ever provided such funds in the past to support their local amateur league, from where the vast majority of their future players will be found ?  If not, what's the difference in doing it for a teams just because of their gender ?

Yes, give support to the Womens' game but do so for all the worthwhile reasons and not just because it's currently the politically correct thing to do.  Most certainly there should be equality for all ... but surely only if ALL are giving back equal benefits to their financier.

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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

In this age of everyone wanting to ensure they are politically correct and  having equality for all then the following comment might be taken by some as though I am against the womens' game ... but no, I fully support anything to promote RL, it's just that I wish to look at the overall picture concerning the game and not just how one particular element might be beneficial to promote themselves rather than the sport as a whole.

Yes, in it's own environment of the womens' game their Challenge Cup Final was a success but how does that particular game actually compare with similar occasions in the other aspects of the sport. True, I was not at the Final and have only seen clips of it on social media and therefore I would certainly not comment on the standard of play. However, I am sure that while the players most certainly gave 100% commitment to their cause, their abilities - and obvious physical qualities - would still not be really adequate enough to compete against many of even the lowest-ranked mens' amateur teams in the country.

No doubt the occasion ensured that the attendance at the womens' final may well have been more than is usual for a regular contest, yet it didn't really appear as though the numbers who watch matches in this league are any greater, if indeed anywhere equal to, those seen each week at amateur grounds throughout the country.

Again, these are not complaints about the womens' game itself  but is just a reality when comparing the two various aspects.

My overall point is that while some professional clubs - and this applies to many other sports throughout the country - are now trying to ensure they do not appear as a sexist, what return, financially or otherwise, do they expect to see for the money they might put into organising such teams ? Furthermore would they actually spend the same on other projects which would bring in that same return to the club as their womens' teams and have they ever provided such funds in the past to support their local amateur league, from where the vast majority of their future players will be found ?  If not, what's the difference in doing it for a teams just because of their gender ?

Yes, give support to the Womens' game but do so for all the worthwhile reasons and not just because it's currently the politically correct thing to do.  Most certainly there should be equality for all ... but surely only if ALL are giving back equal benefits to their financier.

I understand your point, and certainly there is an element of ‘jumping on the bandwagon’ but that is because Sport England are funding and pushing the development. It’s a big growth area for the sport as well, and commercial partners and sponsors are more interested in backing the female side as well. It’s a long way from ever being close to the men’s game, but it’s coming from a low base and is really still to find it’s level

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DoubleD .. I totally agree with you. Yes, of course, we have to give the womens' game time to grow. In fact the points I raised are probably even more relevant to some other sports (ie cricket, football, etc) where extensive coverage in the written media and on tv is now being given to the womens' game, yet do those teams involved actually provide an equal percentage of benefits to their clubs for the backing they are given, financial or otherwise, in comparison to the mens' teams ?

I am actually commenting from some experience of watching several womens' RL games and although, as in any sporting contest, if two teams are of roughly equal standard they can provide a competitive encounter. However, the quality of play I have seen has generally been poor as have the attendances, which would probably be surpassed even at many of the lower-ranked mens' amateur games taking place around the country every weekend. That again shows the point I am making - is there enough general interest in the womens' game to currently justify the amount of money, publicity and support that is now being given to it ? Yes, of course, assist its development but let's not just go over the top in providing an unjustifiable amount of funds in various ways just so the RFL can say they are politically correct and can't be accused of sexism.

As you correctly said about the womens' game, "it’s coming from a low base and is really still to find it’s level." As it grows then yes, an increase in the support for it can also be done proportionally, but it's currently as though such backing is only being given so that RL doesn't receive bad publicity even though the whole game itself could profit even more (not just financially) from similar backing which is not being given in other areas.

 

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8 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

DoubleD .. I totally agree with you. Yes, of course, we have to give the womens' game time to grow. In fact the points I raised are probably even more relevant to some other sports (ie cricket, football, etc) where extensive coverage in the written media and on tv is now being given to the womens' game, yet do those teams involved actually provide an equal percentage of benefits to their clubs for the backing they are given, financial or otherwise, in comparison to the mens' teams ?

I am actually commenting from some experience of watching several womens' RL games and although, as in any sporting contest, if two teams are of roughly equal standard they can provide a competitive encounter. However, the quality of play I have seen has generally been poor as have the attendances, which would probably be surpassed even at many of the lower-ranked mens' amateur games taking place around the country every weekend. That again shows the point I am making - is there enough general interest in the womens' game to currently justify the amount of money, publicity and support that is now being given to it ? Yes, of course, assist its development but let's not just go over the top in providing an unjustifiable amount of funds in various ways just so the RFL can say they are politically correct and can't be accused of sexism.

As you correctly said about the womens' game, "it’s coming from a low base and is really still to find it’s level." As it grows then yes, an increase in the support for it can also be done proportionally, but it's currently as though such backing is only being given so that RL doesn't receive bad publicity even though the whole game itself could profit even more (not just financially) from similar backing which is not being given in other areas.

 

I think the reality is that Sport England are financing this because they want to see more girls in sport, as it's not seen as 'cool' for girls to play sport in school etc. So they're trying to change perceptions for 50% of the population. That is a large market to aim for. Participation is certainly growing in the women's game off the back of it (although you would expect it to), so you could say those aims are being achieved by the funding provided by Sport England. There's not masses of RFL money going into it.

There's definitely a case for saying the RFL are jumping on the bandwagon, along with the SL clubs because they've shown little interest in women's RL before, probably because of the lack of return that you point out. However, i do think some sports like cricket are showing that there's a market out there. Perhaps less so for spectators (although some women's internationals do get reasonable crowds) but more because commercial partners/sponsors are keen to back it, as it's positive PR. A lot of it is spin at the moment, and i definitely agree it's all driven by the media and political correctness blah blah blah but I equally think we should take advantage of it and support the women's game to reach the level that it should. What that level will be, i'm not sure, but it should certainly aim to be on a par with Championship rugby in terms of interest.

The skill level is another matter, and that's one of perception. It's obviously going to be on a lower level, but that's because the playing base is so low at the moment. When more athletes come through, it should rise significantly. It should also be said the Australians (jillarooos) and Kiwis (Ferns) are a long way ahead and if you watch some of their games, you might be impressed.

Lastly, and not to take this off in a tangent, but i do agree that the media etc is obsessed with this whole equality thing, which is pathetic. Things should be done on merit and the return they produce from the market. The bug bear for me is the equal pay argument for men and women in tennis majors. It's not like the women are badly paid but they play fewer sets and I imagine generate less interest in terms of viewing spectators/tv viewers/sponsors so why should they automatically be given the same pay? If i produced less return in my job, why should i expect the same pay?

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DoubleD .. We are obviously coming from the same direction with our opinions but I must bow to your superior knowledge of the Sport England situation - something I know little about. Therefore, the same comments I previously made about funds awarded to promote the womens' game should probably therefore be directed at Sport England instead of the RFL, although either way it's still a matter of whether the game is receiving a worthwhile return on the investment.

I also agree with your comments on tennis and of equality being achieved by merit and not just to satisfy those who are currently passionate about political correctness. Unfortunately some will still consider even our slight criticisms of the system are being sexist, yet I have no problem with show jumping, horse racing, etc where men and women compete on equal terms and the best wins irrespective of gender.  In fact, turning the issue on its head, there is actually a mens' England international netball team yet their games have never been shown on tv - and nobody has ever complained at sexism in that respect.

Of course rugby is a different matter due to the physical aspects of the game and unless we have mixed teams then women will never be able to compete at the same level as the men. I truly wish the womens' game much success and hope to see it grow but those pushing for more status should remember the level it is currently at. Yes, publicity will breed awareness and interest of the game but as its present standard is akin to lower-rated amateur teams then is it really correct to promote it on a equal billing, as per the 2021 World Cup website, to the main event .  I agree with you about the womens' game down-under but I just wonder if those newcomers we hope to attract to the game for that competition and who turn up to watch a womens' match might then expect quality entertainment on a par with the mens' tournament and could then go away disappointed and not wish to return.

As with any institution trying to break into a current strong market, the way is not to go in guns blazing but to take one step at a time and gradually build up the awareness of your product ... as long as that product is something the general public actually want and is worthy of the investment put into it.

Maybe some people might agree with my views and others don't - and I am not trying to say I am correct in all these respects - but I sincerely hope these comments are taken as genuinely trying to assist the womens' game and not just as criticisms of their involvement in the sport.

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2 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

DoubleD .. We are obviously coming from the same direction with our opinions but I must bow to your superior knowledge of the Sport England situation - something I know little about. Therefore, the same comments I previously made about funds awarded to promote the womens' game should probably therefore be directed at Sport England instead of the RFL, although either way it's still a matter of whether the game is receiving a worthwhile return on the investment.

I also agree with your comments on tennis and of equality being achieved by merit and not just to satisfy those who are currently passionate about political correctness. Unfortunately some will still consider even our slight criticisms of the system are being sexist, yet I have no problem with show jumping, horse racing, etc where men and women compete on equal terms and the best wins irrespective of gender.  In fact, turning the issue on its head, there is actually a mens' England international netball team yet their games have never been shown on tv - and nobody has ever complained at sexism in that respect.

Of course rugby is a different matter due to the physical aspects of the game and unless we have mixed teams then women will never be able to compete at the same level as the men. I truly wish the womens' game much success and hope to see it grow but those pushing for more status should remember the level it is currently at. Yes, publicity will breed awareness and interest of the game but as its present standard is akin to lower-rated amateur teams then is it really correct to promote it on a equal billing, as per the 2021 World Cup website, to the main event .  I agree with you about the womens' game down-under but I just wonder if those newcomers we hope to attract to the game for that competition and who turn up to watch a womens' match might then expect quality entertainment on a par with the mens' tournament and could then go away disappointed and not wish to return.

As with any institution trying to break into a current strong market, the way is not to go in guns blazing but to take one step at a time and gradually build up the awareness of your product ... as long as that product is something the general public actually want and is worthy of the investment put into it.

Maybe some people might agree with my views and others don't - and I am not trying to say I am correct in all these respects - but I sincerely hope these comments are taken as genuinely trying to assist the womens' game and not just as criticisms of their involvement in the sport.

Yes I don't think we're miles apart in thoughts on this. Ref. Sport England though, their mandate is to gain an increase in participation in sport and they've got a strong focus on female participation to try and break the perception that sport for girls is not cool etc. so if they see a significant increase in participants, then ultimately they are achieving their aims and getting a return on investment.

I think the argument about women's rugby etc is that the game perhaps doesn't need to be of the same standard, as it is to some extent appealing to a different market. I am not sure on this, and would be interested in some proper market research but there maybe some people (perhaps predominantly female) who will have a preference to watching female rugby rather than male. There'd also likely be greater potential sponsors/commercial revenue going into Top level women's rugby than possibly 2nd tier or 3rd tier men's rugby. So there is that attraction to growing the game. I don't think anyone is expecting the standard of women's rugby to be even close to the men's but it will improve and I don't think anyone would be put off by it, never to return. In fact, it 's more likely to get them intrigued and look out for SL when it's next on. I have no issue with it being promoted as part of the WC2021, which is a festival of rugby, bringing together wheelchair rugby as well. It ties it all in nicely but no one is fooled into thinking what is the main event.

It's just as well you posted this on the Women's forum and not the Any Other Business part, as you'd have the band of wet liberals and left wing socialists crawling all over you like a rash :)

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DoubleD .. Yes, it's good to have a meaningful discussion with someone who can accept other peoples' points of view and responds in a way which then puts forward their own opinion in a reasonable and calm manner. I understand that, like when supporting your own team, people can get so passionate about a subject that it can sway their opinion about an issue which they would otherwise talk about in a more reasonable way if say it was concerning teams they didn't have much affiliation with. Such is the same with the politically correct world we live in today ... most people just want to get on with their lives and accept that there are certain differences between sexes, cultures, etc but as the saying goes, "A crying child gets most attention" and therefore those who constantly complain about certain aspects of life seem to get more publicity than probably the vast majority who have no real opinion one way or the other.

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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21 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

DoubleD .. Yes, it's good to have a meaningful discussion with someone who can accept other peoples' points of view and responds in a way which then puts forward their own opinion in a reasonable and calm manner. I understand that, like when supporting your own team, people can get so passionate about a subject that it can sway their opinion about an issue which they would otherwise talk about in a more reasonable way if say it was concerning teams they didn't have much affiliation with. Such is the same with the politically correct world we live in today ... most people just want to get on with their lives and accept that there are certain differences between sexes, cultures, etc but as the saying goes, "A crying child gets most attention" and therefore those who constantly complain about certain aspects of life seem to get more publicity than probably the vast majority who have no real opinion one way or the other.

Absolutely, I couldn't have put it better myself

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RL in the UK is finally putting some effort in on the women's game, because state funding is available for growth, and can also be withdrawn for lack of growth. So it could be said that they are doing it because they must, rather than they want to. If it gets done, I'll accept less than honourable motives. Again.

But the BBC have, this year, committed to a huge expansion of coverage (about 500 hours) of women's sport in general too, so the Challenge Cup Final really benefited from that, as it was originally only going to be a Facebook stream. And I've deleted my Facebook account. Rugby League needs to get in on this, or it'll be left behind. Again.

Most of the womens' RL I've seen has been the Jillaroos versus the Ferns (Tests and Nines), and that's been brilliant entertainment. A belated push to improve the game over here could see some great test series, but the Antipodeans are ahead of us. Again.

Edited by Futtocks
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