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Feigning injuries

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7 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

We are forgetting that coaches are concerned regarding future illness caused by injuries now.  Concussion injuries are going through due process these days, like never before, and player welfare is very topical.

Its all well and good for suggestions that the players must be taken from the field, but what if that player has a spine or head injury?   

JP's Twitter comment is right, but we need to start naming these cheats.  Unfortunately, it is very difficult and players and coaches know it.

Easy to monitor in SL.... just count the number of times it happens in every game (4th official say), then compare each club. Then have a statistician tell you the outliers and publish the comparison list.

At least with SL it can be setting the right culture.

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1 minute ago, redjonn said:

Easy to monitor in SL.... just count the number of times it happens in every game (4th official say), then compare each club. Then have a statistician tell you the outliers and publish the comparison list.

At least with SL it can be setting the right culture.

I’m not arguing with you, but who would monitor it?  Sky?  It’s not really a stat that throws a positive on the game.  

IMO it has to come from coaches or even Club owners.   

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20 hours ago, Old Frightful said:

A Toulouse player went down injured after tackling a Leeds player yesterday. The ref allowed play to go on until Leeds completed their set. Then Toulouse regained possession and after the second or third Toulouse play the ball, he eventually stopped play for him to receive treatment.

Bizarre.

If its the incident im thinking of he was being brought off behind the defensive line not too far from the play. 

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Firstly, theres a bit of the ol' tinted spectacles out here, looking for the halcyon days of yore here. Players feigned injury more than you remember then and less than they do now. 

Secondly, players careers ended early, they often had debilitating injuries for the rest of their lives, and we often didnt know the danger of what we were doing. Its less feigning injury and more protecting players. 

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39 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I’m not arguing with you, but who would monitor it?  Sky?  It’s not really a stat that throws a positive on the game.  

IMO it has to come from coaches or even Club owners.   

as I say.. the 4th official as part of his performance review of ref's. I thought they had a 4th official at every SL game.

Edited by redjonn

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7 hours ago, hooped shirts and local la said:

when was it the great, much loved Alex Murphy got himself stretchered off resulting in Syd Hynes being dismissed from the field? What was the outcome of Murphy's injury?

Did he come back on 10 minutes later? If so I must have missed it.

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There's a simple way to clamp down on it, make it mandatory that if the ref has to stop the game for an injury then that player must leave the field for an assessment and must stay off for a minimum of say 1 minute once play resumes (about the time it takes for 1 set of 6). If the doctor/physio thinks it's serious then he can be substituted immediately but if they want him to play on then he has to wait it out on the sideline for the full minute. 

Players would soon stop feigning injury if they knew it would disadvantage their team, and coaches wouldn't encourage their players to do it.

I also think we should adopt the shot clock like the NRL for scrums and drop outs as this is where players also waste masses of time as whole teams of physios and water carriers come on.

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9 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

There's a simple way to clamp down on it, make it mandatory that if the ref has to stop the game for an injury then that player must leave the field for an assessment and must stay off for a minimum of say 1 minute once play resumes (about the time it takes for 1 set of 6). If the doctor/physio thinks it's serious then he can be substituted immediately but if they want him to play on then he has to wait it out on the sideline for the full minute. 

Players would soon stop feigning injury if they knew it would disadvantage their team, and coaches wouldn't encourage their players to do it.

I also think we should adopt the shot clock like the NRL for scrums and drop outs as this is where players also waste masses of time as whole teams of physios and water carriers come on.

It would also be an unfair punishment on players who are genuinely injured. 

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14 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

It would also be an unfair punishment on players who are genuinely injured. 

If they're genuinely injured then they can be substituted. 

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1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

If they're genuinely injured then they can be substituted. 

They may also risk staying up when they are injured and that can have disastrous consequences.

 

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8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

They may also risk staying up when they are injured and that can have disastrous consequences.

 

Of course that is a risk. As a sport we cannot place players in a position where they may be injured and not receive the appropriate treatment.

Which is why it is such a shame that players are currently pretending to be injured in order to gain an unfair advantage as they know that staying down will force the hand of the referee to hold the game up.

As Jamie Peacock highlighted, it is not a welcome development in our sport and only the playing and coaching staff can eradicate it by acting with the appropriate integrity. 

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Of course that is a risk. As a sport we cannot place players in a position where they may be injured and not receive the appropriate treatment.

Which is why it is such a shame that players are currently pretending to be injured in order to gain an unfair advantage as they know that staying down will force the hand of the referee to hold the game up.

As Jamie Peacock highlighted, it is not a welcome development in our sport and only the playing and coaching staff can eradicate it by acting with the appropriate integrity. 

As i have said, i think people are looking at the past with some rose tinted spectacles and looking at today with the opposite. It was worse than you think previously and not as bad as people think now. 

Though i dont think it is much of an issue at all, the only way to solve it is to have an independent RFL doctor as the only medical professional allowed on the field and he decides when the game stops. 

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

As i have said, i think people are looking at the past with some rose tinted spectacles and looking at today with the opposite. It was worse than you think previously and not as bad as people think now. 

Though i dont think it is much of an issue at all, the only way to solve it is to have an independent RFL doctor as the only medical professional allowed on the field and he decides when the game stops. 

Don't take any offence on this but I will take Jamie Peacocks insight into the scale of the problem on this one. It is obviously a big enough problem for him to speak out... and he is in a pretty fair position to make a judgement.

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12 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Don't take any offence on this but I will take Jamie Peacocks insight into the scale of the problem on this one. It is obviously a big enough problem for him to speak out... and he is in a pretty fair position to make a judgement.

You're welcome to take anyones insight you want. You can even form your own if you want. 

Like players talking to refs, and the reserves and a million other things in the game it just seems like old men shaking their fists at clouds shouting "it werent like this in my day" 

Edited by scotchy1

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I remember referring 10 years ago and the youngsters were clearly told to stay down , as a ref in the junior game I was obliged to stop the game immediately for treatment, very rarely was it needed may I add??

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14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

You're welcome to take anyones insight you want. You can even form your own if you want. 

Like players talking to refs, and the reserves and a million other things in the game it just seems like old men shaking their fists at clouds shouting "it werent like this in my day" 

Thanks for the advice.  I am happy to use my own insight on many issues and form my own opinions.

But (kind of old fashioned in the modern world I know) I am also happy to defer to someone who has more knowledge and experience than I do.  You should try it someday, it is both humbling and rather liberating.

Jamie Peacock is a recently retired pro League player - regarded as one of the toughest in the game.  He has no axe to grind on this other than wanting our sport to be seen in the best possible light.

He says there is a problem.  You don't.  I think his opinion carries more weight.

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48 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

They may also risk staying up when they are injured and that can have disastrous consequences.

 

It isn't often I agree with Toppy but I will give it a go.

There are two scenarios: (1) a player has hurt himself, or (2) he hasn't.

In scenario (1), the player - let's call him Dani Ricardsson - hurts himself and goes down. He is treated, as now. But Dani must retreat from the field for a minute or two, or be subbed. If he is injured and decides not to go down and makes a tackle, that is his/his team's own daft fault. Sitting on his backside for thirty seconds, rubbing his neck and looking up at the screen, won't lessen his injury. And let's be clear, he could play on injured today if he is feeling that selfless.

In scenario (2), our man Lewis Macani-Scarface isn't injured. Here, as his side are lining up to drop out, he faces a choice over whether to play on, or laboriously tie up his shoelaces and let his side play out the next set with 12 while he sorts it out.

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10 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

It isn't often I agree with Toppy but I will give it a go.

There are two scenarios: (1) a player has hurt himself, or (2) he hasn't.

In scenario (1), the player - let's call him Dani Ricardsson - hurts himself and goes down. He is treated, as now. But Dani must retreat from the field for a minute or two, or be subbed. If he is injured and decides not to go down and makes a tackle, that is his/his team's own daft fault. Sitting on his backside for thirty seconds, rubbing his neck and looking up at the screen, won't lessen his injury. And let's be clear, he could play on injured today if he is feeling that selfless.

In scenario (2), our man Lewis Macani-Scarface isn't injured. Here, as his side are lining up to drop out, he faces a choice over whether to play on, or laboriously tie up his shoelaces and let his side play out the next set with 12 while he sorts it out.

I can tell you picked those names out of thin air !

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18 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

It isn't often I agree with Toppy but I will give it a go.

There are two scenarios: (1) a player has hurt himself, or (2) he hasn't.

In scenario (1), the player - let's call him Dani Ricardsson - hurts himself and goes down. He is treated, as now. But Dani must retreat from the field for a minute or two, or be subbed. If he is injured and decides not to go down and makes a tackle, that is his/his team's own daft fault. Sitting on his backside for thirty seconds, rubbing his neck and looking up at the screen, won't lessen his injury. And let's be clear, he could play on injured today if he is feeling that selfless.

In scenario (2), our man Lewis Macani-Scarface isn't injured. Here, as his side are lining up to drop out, he faces a choice over whether to play on, or laboriously tie up his shoelaces and let his side play out the next set with 12 while he sorts it out.

tying his shoelace isnt an injury and not really relevant. 

But in your first example receiving treatment also means receiving diagnosis. 

You missed out a third option, the player is injured and doesnt know how badly, in a desperate attempt to help his side he makes that injury hugely worse. 

and you missed a 4th option, the player is concussed and not in any position whatsoever to make any sort of decision on whether to play on or not. 

You also missed a 5th option player is seriously injured and delays in treating that injury as he attempts to stay on the field means that the players health is put at risk. 

All of those seem far worse than some old men thinking the game isnt as hard as it was in their day to me. 

Edited by scotchy1

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19 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Thanks for the advice.  I am happy to use my own insight on many issues and form my own opinions.

But (kind of old fashioned in the modern world I know) I am also happy to defer to someone who has more knowledge and experience than I do.  You should try it someday, it is both humbling and rather liberating.

Jamie Peacock is a recently retired pro League player - regarded as one of the toughest in the game.  He has no axe to grind on this other than wanting our sport to be seen in the best possible light.

He says there is a problem.  You don't.  I think his opinion carries more weight.

JP is a legend. 

He isnt a Doctor.

He is an old man shaking his fist at clouds about a fair few things. 

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

JP is a legend. 

He isnt a Doctor.

He is an old man shaking his fist at clouds about a fair few things. 

JP is a legend, I agree.

He is frustrated that players are cheating by abusing the laws of the game set up to protect their welfare.

So am I.  You are obviously not bothered… fair enough.

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Just now, Dunbar said:

JP is a legend, I agree.

He is frustrated that players are cheating by abusing the laws of the game set up to protect their welfare.

So am I.  You are obviously not bothered… fair enough.

No, i would be bothered if there were such an increase in those things happening. I dont believe there is. Its an entirely different thing. 

 

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

JP is a legend. 

He isnt a Doctor.

He is an old man shaking his fist at clouds about a fair few things. 

The difference between now and t'old days is that the refereeing rules have changed.  Even five years ago, you had to be SERIOUSLY injured with a physio/doctor flagging urgently for the ref to stop the game during an attacking set.  If you went down with a feigned injury then you were an imbecile costing your team a player.  Yes, every team had its slowing tactics that they have now where they (for example) stretch out stoppages with a pretend injured player right on a scrum mark, that's been happening since the first competitive games and is a different matter entirely.

My view is quite clear, if the ref stops play then the injured player goes off the field until the ref decides he can come back on again; if the ref thinks the player is a chancer then he could conveniently miss the player signalling to come back on for a tackle or two.  If players want to act like footballers then bring in football rules

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12 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

There's a simple way to clamp down on it, make it mandatory that if the ref has to stop the game for an injury then that player must leave the field for an assessment and must stay off for a minimum of say 1 minute once play resumes (about the time it takes for 1 set of 6). If the doctor/physio thinks it's serious then he can be substituted immediately but if they want him to play on then he has to wait it out on the sideline for the full minute. 

Players would soon stop feigning injury if they knew it would disadvantage their team, and coaches wouldn't encourage their players to do it.

I also think we should adopt the shot clock like the NRL for scrums and drop outs as this is where players also waste masses of time as whole teams of physios and water carriers come on.

Are you talking about every level of the game, which earlier posters have said suffers from the same issues?

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5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

No, i would be bothered if there were such an increase in those things happening. I dont believe there is. Its an entirely different thing. 

 

Yet everyone else seems to agree that there is an increase.

Obviously you must be right, as in all things.

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