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kiyan

Happy Manchester Pride?

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On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:07 PM, Saintslass said:

Was it Tatchell who recently bemoaned the corporate nature of Pride events these days?  I think it was.  And one of the problems when something becomes corporate is that people start to wonder why a particular organisation or company doesn't fall into line.

Rugby league did a lot of work and marketing in this area a few years back.  Personally, being a sport with a small budget I would much rather our marketing money be channelled into areas that will have a real impact on our sport rather than push Pride events that have nothing at all to do with rugby league.  I wonder why we still have Pride events actually given that gay people now have equal rights - after all, the idea behind Pride was to highlight the inequalities experienced by gay people wasn't it?  Does Pride still have relevance given how much has changed or is it just another carnival/festival for people to go to?  Either way, RL has more immediate things for its marketing people to focus on IMO.

Peter Tatchell  has made plenty of comments about a lot of things,( mainly about LGBT, human rights and equality worldwide.  He has spent  many years campaigning against ( the Conservative Section 28), many years trying to bring  Mugabe to account for his war crimes) but interestingly you bring up a comment that he thinks Pride has become too corporate!

Do  really think that he would deem involvement from the RFL as a corporate  take over.

There is a gay/straight friendly team (canalsiders?) who march ever year in Manchester Pride are you suggesting that if the RFL supported them with a RL float it would be seen as a corporate take over?

Does pride still have relevance:

  1. 75% of LGBT  people under 25 have considered suicide
  2. 60% of those under 25 who are homeless are LGBT
  3. 85% of LGBT people will not hold hands in a public space as they are scared of being attacked
  4. 35% of those under 21 who commit suicide are LGBT
  5. 25% of transsexuals are murdered
  6. 26% of assaults in the UK are against LGBT people

Tell me - Does Pride still have a place?

Or is that your idea of equality?

 

 

 

Edited by kiyan
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What I am about to write will no doubt have many claiming I am sexist, etc... but no, I am just asking a question.

If Rugby League was to promote events specifically towards the homosexuality community, etc ., would they do exactly the same on other occasions and specifically target hetrosexuals ? Equality for all ? Most certainly ... but all means ALL.

Targeting any particular group of people is itself an "ist" (Racist, sexist, etc) so why not just promote the game itself as a whole ? If these people want to get involved then all well and good but why should some people not be specifically targeted just because others of their style are assumed to already be part of the majority involved ?

I don't go around telling people of my sexuality so why should I be bothered about other peoples ? It makes no difference to how the game is played.

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

What I am about to write will no doubt have many claiming I am sexist, etc... but no, I am just asking a question.

If Rugby League was to promote events specifically towards the homosexuality community, etc ., would they do exactly the same on other occasions and specifically target hetrosexuals ? Equality for all ? Most certainly ... but all means ALL.

Targeting any particular group of people is itself an "ist" (Racist, sexist, etc) so why not just promote the game itself as a whole ? If these people want to get involved then all well and good but why should some people not be specifically targeted just because others of their style are assumed to already be part of the majority involved ?

I don't go around telling people of my sexuality so why should I be bothered about other peoples ? It makes no difference to how the game is played.

I assume you are heterosexual and a man?

You like most, do not think you go around parading your sexuality but how many times have your introduced your wife to others(parading your sexuality), how many times have you grabbed a girls hand in the street ( parading your sexuality), how many times have you made a comment about your girl/wife/bird/ to others ( parading your sexuality).

Straight people believe they do not parade their sexuality , because they do not think about it.  In reality they do it every day ( as they should), even in 2018 a gay person would have to judge those situations before showing any public display of affection, which a straight couple does not even realise they are doing.

People do not spend years pretending they are gay to family and friends ( being bullied in school), building up the courage to come out as straight!  In fact no one comes out as being straight - it is just assumed you are!

As for  your question about RL and indeed RU and football; even the most conservative census has 2-3% of the population as gay - yet in the top tier of those 3 sports -1 person is openly gay. 

Why would sports target the LGBT community and make them feel welcome in the sport?  Maybe because they obviously do not feel they are!  ( unless you are a diver or gymnast - a "gay sport"  - in which the UK leads the world and the majority of those gold medallists are straight - but their sports and them are very welcoming to all.)

You are not sexist and I hope I have answered your question?

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6 hours ago, kiyan said:

You and comments like that are why RL teams ( despite their best efforts) are swimming upstream and struggling to convince those in  charge of £millions in sponsorship, refuse to put that money in this sport!

It is not the RFL, it is the supporters!  When people think it is ok to make comments like that - no blue chip company will ever want to be involved let alone stump up a few £million.

 

?????????????????????? we support and attend gay pride all over the place even in maspalomas where we schedule our holidays to clash with it, we find gay bars much more fun and went to our friends sons  wedding to another man  this year- so get a grip- it was a joke about mistaking the the rainbow emblem for the iconic kids show- A JOKE - you know what they are ?????????????????????

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RL does a lot of great work in the community around things that are not about RL, I agree with kiyan that we should be doing more visible stuff. I get the point about marketing, but this is really easy stuff.

More and more we are going into our she'll and doing our business quietly.

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6 hours ago, kiyan said:

I assume you are heterosexual and a man?

You like most, do not think you go around parading your sexuality but how many times have your introduced your wife to others(parading your sexuality), how many times have you grabbed a girls hand in the street ( parading your sexuality), how many times have you made a comment about your girl/wife/bird/ to others ( parading your sexuality).

Straight people believe they do not parade their sexuality , because they do not think about it.  In reality they do it every day ( as they should), even in 2018 a gay person would have to judge those situations before showing any public display of affection, which a straight couple does not even realise they are doing.

People do not spend years pretending they are gay to family and friends ( being bullied in school), building up the courage to come out as straight!  In fact no one comes out as being straight - it is just assumed you are!

As for  your question about RL and indeed RU and football; even the most conservative census has 2-3% of the population as gay - yet in the top tier of those 3 sports -1 person is openly gay. 

Why would sports target the LGBT community and make them feel welcome in the sport?  Maybe because they obviously do not feel they are!  ( unless you are a diver or gymnast - a "gay sport"  - in which the UK leads the world and the majority of those gold medallists are straight - but their sports and them are very welcoming to all.)

You are not sexist and I hope I have answered your question?

IMO the barriers are not being broken down by people pretending to welcome the gay community (A lot are pretending) but by the families and friends  of gay people who after looking more closely find an understanding of their gay friend or family member.

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7 hours ago, kiyan said:

I assume you are heterosexual and a man?

You like most, do not think you go around parading your sexuality but how many times have your introduced your wife to others(parading your sexuality), how many times have you grabbed a girls hand in the street ( parading your sexuality), how many times have you made a comment about your girl/wife/bird/ to others ( parading your sexuality).

Straight people believe they do not parade their sexuality , because they do not think about it.  In reality they do it every day ( as they should), even in 2018 a gay person would have to judge those situations before showing any public display of affection, which a straight couple does not even realise they are doing.

People do not spend years pretending they are gay to family and friends ( being bullied in school), building up the courage to come out as straight!  In fact no one comes out as being straight - it is just assumed you are!

As for  your question about RL and indeed RU and football; even the most conservative census has 2-3% of the population as gay - yet in the top tier of those 3 sports -1 person is openly gay. 

Why would sports target the LGBT community and make them feel welcome in the sport?  Maybe because they obviously do not feel they are!  ( unless you are a diver or gymnast - a "gay sport"  - in which the UK leads the world and the majority of those gold medallists are straight - but their sports and them are very welcoming to all.)

You are not sexist and I hope I have answered your question?

Kiyan ... In answer to your first question - yes, on both account. You are also correct about introducing my wife, etc, but there are also times when I shake the hand of another man or even hug them when one has scored a try, yet I'm sure nobody takes that as though I am "flaunting my sexuality".

These days the vast majority of people accept others for the way they are without any prejudice but, yes, there are still idiots out there who are against certain groups of people for various reasons. However, constant news or publicity items specifically concerning these certain people, while good in trying to make them feel more accepted in the wider community, do give the impression that it is still the majority of others who are against them - and that is not so.

As much as I admire your support of a certain group of people for equality, then please also accept that equality means equality and not being given more than others. I am not bothered if the RFL target homosexuals as long as they target other groups in the same way.

 

 

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

 

I am not bothered if the RFL target homosexuals as long as they target other groups in the same way.

 

 

What exactly do you mean by this?

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13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What exactly do you mean by this?

There were comments in previous posts asking about the possibility of the RFL targeting the homosexual community in order to get them involved with sport. I have no problem with that but surely they should not be given special treatment and any different to the way that hetrosexual people are targeted. Both should be treated equally.

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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3 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

There were comments in previous posts asking about the possibility of the RFL targeting the homosexual community in order to get them involved with sport. I have no problem with that but surely they should not be given special treatment and any different to the way that hetrosexual people are targeted. Both should be treated equally.

I can market to whoever I want to - whether that is ethnic minority groups, men, women, kids, gays, trans whatever.

I suppose you are raging when you are excluded from the kids' Summer Dance sessions?

Why does this offend you so much?

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Dave T ... obviously the tone of a comment cannot always be understood when it is written rather than when heard it spoken and you have certainly got the wrong end of the stick regarding my comment by the way you are replying.

I am not "raging" nor does the situation offend me ... I am just making a point about having equality for everybody. Also, I was not referring to yourself specifically when I mentioned previous posts.; I was just commenting on the thread in general.

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23 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Dave T ... obviously the tone of a comment cannot always be understood when it is written rather than when heard it spoken and you have certainly got the wrong end of the stick regarding my comment by the way you are replying.

I am not "raging" nor does the situation offend me ... I am just making a point about having equality for everybody. Also, I was not referring to yourself specifically when I mentioned previous posts.; I was just commenting on the thread in general.

That's fine, but I'm not sure how your 'treat everybody equal' thing translates here. 

If you don't like targeted activity, then Kids' Summer Dance Clubs should be out as far as you are concerned, unless they opened them up to everyone, which they don't.

I don't think that is an issue in the slightest.

EDIT: The reason I am challenging your view here is because I think it is a very important point. You want to suppress this kind of activity in the interests of 'equality' - that is pretty dangerous. 

Edited by Dave T

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Dave T .. Obviously my point is not being made clear. I am NOT trying to suppress any kind of activity. I have previously stated that I don't mind having such events; I am only asking that it isn't limited to particular groups of people.

Kids' summer dances is as it says "KIDS summer dances" - I would challenge it if it was only for a certain group of kids. Just like promoting RL - it should be promoted equally to everyone and not just to one group because they have a specific way of life.

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Dave T .. Obviously my point is not being made clear. I am NOT trying to suppress any kind of activity. I have previously stated that I don't mind having such events; I am only asking that it isn't limited to particular groups of people.

Kids' summer dances is as it says "KIDS summer dances" - I would challenge it if it was only for a certain group of kids. Just like promoting RL - it should be promoted equally to everyone and not just to one group because they have a specific way of life.

I'm afraid I am still not 100% following your point here.

Can you give me an example of something that a club has done that you are not happy with? 

Everybody is treated equally as far as I am concerned, everybody is welcome, but I see not a hint of an issue with speaking to certain groups of people in a way that may attract them and make them feel welcome. Things like using the rainbow logos show that you are welcoming of a group that still suffers from oppression and abuse even in our country.

Clubs going working with religious community groups, women's groups, ethnic minority groups etc. to try and reach out to them should be seen as a very good thing.

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46 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm afraid I am still not 100% following your point here.

Can you give me an example of something that a club has done that you are not happy with? 

Everybody is treated equally as far as I am concerned, everybody is welcome, but I see not a hint of an issue with speaking to certain groups of people in a way that may attract them and make them feel welcome. Things like using the rainbow logos show that you are welcoming of a group that still suffers from oppression and abuse even in our country.

Clubs going working with religious community groups, women's groups, ethnic minority groups etc. to try and reach out to them should be seen as a very good thing.

Dave T ... OK, you don't follow the point.

I never said there was anything that a club has done that I am not happy with. I was only commenting on someone's suggestion of specifically targeting certain groups of people.

If someone had originally suggested for the RFL to make more of an effort to specifically target hetrosexual people then I think there would have been some complaints of sexism and them not being fully inclusive.

Yes clubs going working with all the groups you mention would be welcomed but the alternative groups should be similarly targeted..

 

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3 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Dave T ... OK, you don't follow the point.

I never said there was anything that a club has done that I am not happy with. I was only commenting on someone's suggestion of specifically targeting certain groups of people.

If someone had originally suggested for the RFL to make more of an effort to specifically target hetrosexual people then I think there would have been some complaints of sexism and them not being fully inclusive.

Yes clubs going working with all the groups you mention would be welcomed but the alternative groups should be similarly targeted..

 

Aye. Your last line doesn't make sense. Happy to disagree.

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20 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Dave T ... OK, you don't follow the point.

I never said there was anything that a club has done that I am not happy with. I was only commenting on someone's suggestion of specifically targeting certain groups of people.

If someone had originally suggested for the RFL to make more of an effort to specifically target hetrosexual people then I think there would have been some complaints of sexism and them not being fully inclusive.

Yes clubs going working with all the groups you mention would be welcomed but the alternative groups should be similarly targeted..

 

As there's only 1 openly gay player in Rugby League then I don't think there's any great need to target Heterosexual people to get them involved in the sport. Your point about not being given more than others makes little sense, it's about equality which works both ways. 

Equality can not by definition involve giving one group more than another, it's about giving everyone the same access and opportunities and if 10% of the population is being excluded then as a sport RL is not being inclusive.

The fact that Keegan Hirst and before him Gareth Thomas are the only Gay Professional Rugby players we know about implies there is a problem in both codes that needs to be adressed. 

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11 minutes ago, Shadow said:

As there's only 1 openly gay player in Rugby League then I don't think there's any great need to target Heterosexual people to get them involved in the sport. Your point about not being given more than others makes little sense, it's about equality which works both ways. 

Equality can not by definition involve giving one group more than another, it's about giving everyone the same access and opportunities and if 10% of the population is being excluded then as a sport RL is not being inclusive.

The fact that Keegan Hirst and before him Gareth Thomas are the only Gay Professional Rugby players we know about implies there is a problem in both codes that needs to be adressed. 

Shadow ... your comment of "it's about equality which works both ways" is exactly what I am saying. I am all for the homosexual community to be targeted but in the same way - and no more than - any other group of people.

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2 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Shadow ... your comment of "it's about equality which works both ways" is exactly what I am saying. I am all for the homosexual community to be targeted but in the same way - and no more than - any other group of people.

But as it's so under represented there's clearly work to be done to get "them" on board.

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4 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Dave T .. Obviously my point is not being made clear. I am NOT trying to suppress any kind of activity. I have previously stated that I don't mind having such events; I am only asking that it isn't limited to particular groups of people.

Kids' summer dances is as it says "KIDS summer dances" - I would challenge it if it was only for a certain group of kids. Just like promoting RL - it should be promoted equally to everyone and not just to one group because they have a specific way of life.

I get what your saying.

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42 minutes ago, Shadow said:

But as it's so under represented there's clearly work to be done to get "them" on board.

How do you know they aren't on board but still in the closet ?

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16 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

What I am about to write will no doubt have many claiming I am sexist, etc... but no, I am just asking a question.

If Rugby League was to promote events specifically towards the homosexuality community, etc ., would they do exactly the same on other occasions and specifically target hetrosexuals ? Equality for all ? Most certainly ... but all means ALL.

Targeting any particular group of people is itself an "ist" (Racist, sexist, etc) so why not just promote the game itself as a whole ? If these people want to get involved then all well and good but why should some people not be specifically targeted just because others of their style are assumed to already be part of the majority involved ?

I don't go around telling people of my sexuality so why should I be bothered about other peoples ? It makes no difference to how the game is played.

The default option is not neutral, it is based around the majority of customers

Football is very exclusionary to women.  They do not have a policy of it, but the hardcore tribalism and wearing of colours is not women friendly, no wonder they prefer tennis.  But, I am sure most football fans would absolutely reject the suggestion that football is not welcoming to all.

It is rather like going to a work place where there is a cliche, it is not enough to be welcome on the terms of the existing group, people have to be made welcome and accommodated.  Not making this effort is not being neutral.

THe conversation about homosexuality in sport is often posed as if it is a question about the players accepting it.  I suspect it is more a problem that a minority of fans would be hostile in a way I hope would not be acceptable to a black player.  Just as the effort had to be made to state and that racism is not acceptable, so the effort has to be made with welcoming homosexual people.

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

How do you know they aren't on board but still in the closet ?

I'm absolutely convinced there are similar numbers of gay players to the percentage  of gay people in society as a whole. the fact that they aren't comfortable revealing their sexuality suggests to me that the sport is not sufficiently welcoming or inclusive to the LGBT community, and that work needs to be done in this area.

Edited to add "sufficiently" and "and that work needs to be done in this area"

Edited by Shadow
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2 hours ago, Shadow said:

As there's only 1 openly gay player in Rugby League then I don't think there's any great need to target Heterosexual people to get them involved in the sport. Your point about not being given more than others makes little sense, it's about equality which works both ways. 

Equality can not by definition involve giving one group more than another, it's about giving everyone the same access and opportunities and if 10% of the population is being excluded then as a sport RL is not being inclusive.

The fact that Keegan Hirst and before him Gareth Thomas are the only Gay Professional Rugby players we know about implies there is a problem in both codes that needs to be adressed. 

Ian Roberts?  

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