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kiyan

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3 minutes ago, Shadow said:

I'm absolutely convinced there are similar numbers of gay players to the percentage  of gay people in society as a whole. the fact that they aren't comfortable revealing their sexuality suggests to me that the sport is not sufficiently welcoming or inclusive to the LGBT community, and that work needs to be done in this area.

Edited to add "sufficiently" and "and that work needs to be done in this area"

But gay guys in rugby league have been made welcome, I suggest the guys in our sport who do not come out is because of an outside fear probably family etc

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Just now, Marauder said:

But gay guys in rugby league have been made welcome, I suggest the guys in our sport who do not come out is because of an outside fear probably family etc

And we'll have to agree to disagree.

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4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

They do not have a policy of it, but the hardcore tribalism and wearing of colours is not women friendly, no wonder they prefer tennis.  

This sentence jumped out at me.

I do hope you weren't being serious here.  If you were then you need to have a rethink.  Women are as tribal as men, we like to wear our colours, and we don't all prefer tennis, either to play or to watch.  Women are no more the same as each other than men are so please do not make assumptions about my gender.  Thanking you kindly.

 

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3 hours ago, Shadow said:

I'm absolutely convinced there are similar numbers of gay players to the percentage  of gay people in society as a whole. 

What leads you to that conclusion?

 

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1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

What leads you to that conclusion?

 

That is the reasonable starting point to work from surely? That people's sexual preferences have no impact on sporting preferences or performance? 

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10 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

That is the reasonable starting point to work from surely? That people's sexual preferences have no impact on sporting preferences or performance? 

I was thinking from the other direction really: why should we assume that the percentage of gay people preferring to play or support rugby league reflects that found in the general population?

The ONS considers approximately 2% of the UK population is gay.  However, I know, because relatives and friends are in the business, that more than 2% of those working in the London theatre scene, particularly musical theatre, are gay.  That would suggest that your premise is possibly not an accurate one to start from.  If it was accurate, then no more than 2% of those working in the London theatre/musical theatre would be gay.  Some fields attract greater or lesser representation from particular groups in society.  For example, what percentage of rugby league players are Asian?  (Approximately 6.8% of the UK population is Asian)  What percentage of infant teachers are male?  What percentage of brickies are female?  

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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

I was thinking from the other direction really: why should we assume that the percentage of gay people preferring to play or support rugby league reflects that found in the general population?

The ONS considers approximately 2% of the UK population is gay.  However, I know, because relatives and friends are in the business, that more than 2% of those working in the London theatre scene, particularly musical theatre, are gay.  That would suggest that your premise is possibly not an accurate one to start from.  If it was accurate, then no more than 2% of those working in the London theatre/musical theatre would be gay.  Some fields attract greater or lesser representation from particular groups in society.  For example, what percentage of rugby league players are Asian?  (Approximately 6.8% of the UK population is Asian)  What percentage of infant teachers are male?  What percentage of brickies are female?  

That also leads on to another question - why it is only certain groups that are generally referred to when complaining about a lack of representation in some sections of society yet there are other such groups equally not represented ?

Most publicity is often given to a lack of Asians, homosexuals and women yet does RL have many Polish, Jewish or blind/deaf people involved, either as players or supporters ? I don't know the answer but I suspect the percentage would be roughly equal to the first three categories I mentioned and so why not target those communities in a similar fashion ?

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5 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

That also leads on to another question - why it is only certain groups that are generally referred to when complaining about a lack of representation in some sections of society yet there are other such groups equally not represented ?

Most publicity is often given to a lack of Asians, homosexuals and women yet does RL have many Polish, Jewish or blind/deaf people involved, either as players or supporters ? I don't know the answer but I suspect the percentage would be roughly equal to the first three categories I mentioned and so why not target those communities in a similar fashion ?

I am not sure what other groups are to do with this discussion. 

If you are specifically addressing Kiyan, he might not care as much about other minority groups.  But, regardless, My point about what exists not being neutral also applying to Asians seems fair.  If that post is based on a concern for other minorities, it also applies.  There are radically fewer Asian people and that suggests that they are not made that welcome (soccer has almost entirely male crowds, so there are more extreme examples).

In a place, where one in ten people abuse me, I will not feel welcome.  It is no use referring to the 90%.

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8 hours ago, Saintslass said:

What leads you to that conclusion?

 

A number of factors, mainly that the mix of people’s sexuality capable of playing rugby league at the highest level matches that of society as a whole. This is supported by anecdotal evidence from other professional and amateur sports.

I take your point about some occupations attracting different demographics but would suggest that theatre and the arts may give a distorted image of the mix of sexuality as it is a subset of our society where it is easier to be open about your lifestyle. 

The other examples you give have been the subject of similar positive action to ensure the mix better reflects society.

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6 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

 

That also leads on to another question - why it is only certain groups that are generally referred to when complaining about a lack of representation in some sections of society yet there are other such groups equally not represented ?

Most publicity is often given to a lack of Asians, homosexuals and women yet does RL have many Polish, Jewish or blind/deaf people involved, either as players or supporters ? I don't know the answer but I suspect the percentage would be roughly equal to the first three categories I mentioned and so why not target those communities in a similar fashion ?

This is a spurious argument, unless you have figures backing up your alleged concerns.

Clearly enough people care enough about inclusiveness to get it raised as an issue and action taken. If you are that concerned about Jewish, polish or disability rugby league then get off your sofa and get involved. The fact that you couldn’t even be bothered to Google “Jewish rugby league players” implies to me you aren’t and are just using this as an opportunity to deny one group access and open inclusivity.

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RL may be far from perfect but the fact that it had an openly gay player way before now (1994?) suggests its much more tolerant than other sports.

 

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11 hours ago, Saintslass said:

What leads you to that conclusion?

 

If you look at the list of rugby league players who are openly gay you'll find the vast majority are ladies and I know you like working on percentages.

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

RL may be far from perfect but the fact that it had an openly gay player way before now (1994?) suggests its much more tolerant than other sports.

 

I'd say it could have been 10 years earlier that players were openly gay to an extent their team mates and supporter's knew but they never made an issue out of it.

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3 hours ago, Shadow said:

This is a spurious argument, unless you have figures backing up your alleged concerns.

Clearly enough people care enough about inclusiveness to get it raised as an issue and action taken. If you are that concerned about Jewish, polish or disability rugby league then get off your sofa and get involved. The fact that you couldn’t even be bothered to Google “Jewish rugby league players” implies to me you aren’t and are just using this as an opportunity to deny one group access and open inclusivity.

All my original comment was mean to do was to suggest other groups that could possibly also be targeted as potential people to become interested in RL and was not meant to decry others previously mentioned in this thread.

It appears that some who post on here are always just looking to see the wrong in anything someone says instead of the possible positives. I suggested other groups - what is wrong in that ?

4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I am not sure what other groups are to do with this discussion. 

If you are specifically addressing Kiyan, he might not care as much about other minority groups.  But, regardless, My point about what exists not being neutral also applying to Asians seems fair.  If that post is based on a concern for other minorities, it also applies.  There are radically fewer Asian people and that suggests that they are not made that welcome (soccer has almost entirely male crowds, so there are more extreme examples).

In a place, where one in ten people abuse me, I will not feel welcome.  It is no use referring to the 90%.

Bob8 ... If you read the quote I added to my own which you have reposted above, you would see that other groups of people were mentioned in that and that I was not specifically addressing Kiyan.  You said that certain groups of people are not made welcome yet I was making a point of trying to welcome others in. 

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9 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

All my original comment was mean to do was to suggest other groups that could possibly also be targeted as potential people to become interested in RL and was not meant to decry others previously mentioned in this thread.

It appears that some who post on here are always just looking to see the wrong in anything someone says instead of the possible positives. I suggested other groups - what is wrong in that ?

Bob8 ... If you read the quote I added to my own which you have reposted above, you would see that other groups of people were mentioned in that and that I was not specifically addressing Kiyan.  You said that certain groups of people are not made welcome yet I was making a point of trying to welcome others in. 

As I said, if you had been bothered to use Google to research Jewish, Polish or disability Rugby League I'd be slightly less skeptical of your ptotestations, as it is I think you are coming across as having a problem with one group and using spurious arguments about others to support your prejudice.  

There's an old phrase about walking and sounding like a duck (not you @Farmduck) and you are in my opinion getting close to waddling and going quack.

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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

All my original comment was mean to do was to suggest other groups that could possibly also be targeted as potential people to become interested in RL and was not meant to decry others previously mentioned in this thread.

It appears that some who post on here are always just looking to see the wrong in anything someone says instead of the possible positives. I suggested other groups - what is wrong in that ?

That isn't really what you said though. 

If Rugby League was to promote events specifically towards the homosexuality community, etc ., would they do exactly the same on other occasions and specifically target hetrosexuals ? Equality for all ? Most certainly ... but all means ALL.

This shouldn't be an equality debate. This should be an inclusivity debate. For some reason you have made it about equality, which doesn't make sense. Campaigns to work with the gay community aren't necessarily relevant to other communities. So the things you do may be different.

For example. You may establish that for some reason your fanbase is under-represented by the gay community and you want to do something about that. So you run campaigns that appeal to that community directly, and may not be relevant to other populations - nothing about that is an equality issue, but that is exactly what you made it. 

If every time you ran a campaign for a certain group, you then had to balance it out with running something similar for all other groups just to satisfy this mythical equality point that certain individuals run with for some reason then we just wouldn't get anywhere. 

This is about being inclusive, and if we are under-represented by certain segments of the population, we should try and understand why and maybe attempt do something about it.

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On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:53 PM, Saintslass said:

I was thinking from the other direction really: why should we assume that the percentage of gay people preferring to play or support rugby league reflects that found in the general population?

The ONS considers approximately 2% of the UK population is gay.  However, I know, because relatives and friends are in the business, that more than 2% of those working in the London theatre scene, particularly musical theatre, are gay.  That would suggest that your premise is possibly not an accurate one to start from.  If it was accurate, then no more than 2% of those working in the London theatre/musical theatre would be gay.  Some fields attract greater or lesser representation from particular groups in society.  For example, what percentage of rugby league players are Asian?  (Approximately 6.8% of the UK population is Asian)  What percentage of infant teachers are male?  What percentage of brickies are female?  

I often have agreed with your comments on this forum but this is just whataboutery, and I think you know it!  That diminishes my opinion of you!

The latest ONS figures reveal that  2.5% of the UK population identifies as LBGT, and that 45% of  16-18  year olds ( not counted in the ONS figures) consider themselves gay or bi sexual.

You are really going to use "friends and family" in the London musical theatre scene as some sort of barometer  of LGBT acceptance in RL?

Are you are trying to say that gay boys should go and dance and real straight boys will play rugby>?

 Your opinions on this  are abhorrent to me and I hope most RL fans think the same.

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5 hours ago, kiyan said:

I often have agreed with your comments on this forum but this is just whataboutery, and I think you know it!  That diminishes my opinion of you!

The latest ONS figures reveal that  2.5% of the UK population identifies as LBGT, and that 45% of  16-18  year olds ( not counted in the ONS figures) consider themselves gay or bi sexual.

You are really going to use "friends and family" in the London musical theatre scene as some sort of barometer  of LGBT acceptance in RL?

Are you are trying to say that gay boys should go and dance and real straight boys will play rugby>?

 Your opinions on this  are abhorrent to me and I hope most RL fans think the same.

I'm not saying any of those things and I suggest you calm down and re-read my post.  You may then discover what I am actually saying.

 

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2 hours ago, Saintslass said:

I'm not saying any of those things and I suggest you calm down and re-read my post.  You may then discover what I am actually saying.

 

I actually think @Saintslass raises an interesting example with theatre. 

I was paid to do some acting, but was well aware that part of the reason was the shortage of male actors who could do masculine and working class.  It is assumed that camp people and camp gay men just love theatre, but I certainly saw no evidence of a natural aptitude for it.  It was a rare space where they were welcome and masculine straight men had ot make the effort to fit in.

On the surface, you cannot get much more welcoming that actually paying people to get involved, but still, it was a rare example of excluding non-camp men.  The common tactic to increase popularity was to try and be even camper.  If that sounds stupid, consider the main board, where being more male working class is seen as key to getting the crowds back in.

 

 

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