BBC and Vichy

[Padge]

Be carful or this thread could get binned to the pit of hell. (XCode Forum)

Great to see the BBC give some background to the appalling history of what went on in France under the Vichy government. Not only a small piece before the game but also references by Dave Woods during commentary and a plug  for The Forbidden Game.

Well done Aunty Beeb

[Futtocks]

Worth noting that almost every Cup Final review I've read since the final hooter has mentioned this. I guess it's news to most people, even sports journalists.

That BBC pre-match segment reached a lot of people.

[Ant]

Hopefully enough requests at bookshops and online will see it merit a reprint 

[Futtocks]

3 minutes ago, Ant said:

Hopefully enough requests at bookshops and online will see it merit a reprint 

Dave Woods gave it an extra plug during his match commentary too.

[Father Ted]

It's a very good book, well done Dave Woods. 

[Padge]

44 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Worth noting that almost every Cup Final review I've read since the final hooter has mentioned this. I guess it's news to most people, even sports journalists.

That BBC pre-match segment reached a lot of people.

That means a lot, now maybe we can get the BBC to mention the prejudice of the RFU and how they used their influence to Stifle RL's expansion.

[graveyard johnny]

16 minutes ago, Padge said:

That means a lot, now maybe we can get the BBC to mention the prejudice of the RFU and how they used their influence to Stifle RL's expansion.

and still do.... league forever, union never

[Kris]

I met a nice chap in Devon who did documentaries for the beeb producer 

Took my copy of the book and gave it back a year later

His wife who was french had no idea and she had shared it with her friends

He had tried to float it as a doc but couldn't get the buy in to fund it 

Hopefully someone will

I tweeted  Russel crowe  a few years ago as well thought he would be a great treziste resistance fighter he never replied 

Would be great to do with this what codebreakers did for Wales RL

 

 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

The traitors/thieves totally got away with it, some people have suggested it was the Germans seeing the RL code as being 'resistance'. IMHO they were certainly not 'resistance' as in freedom fighters against the Germans in any greater numbers than other French, it was the traitors that made the 'cannonball tackle' by aligning themselves with the military power to completely  destroy the very fabric of their more popular 'opponents'. 

Without that treacherous collaboration, both codes would end the war at exactly the same level as they went into it with losses for both codes in terms of lost lives, damage to property/plant and needing to rebuild but ultimately RL would still have been the more popular code by far, on fact post war the working mans game as it were would have flourished even further, maybe would have not seen the advent of TV as a threat to the game given its roots were still in essence still growing from the embers.

It's a national disgrace that the treachery has not been made more of and massive reparations paid out. Those on the receiving end must have felt like they had been betrayed twice and stabbed in the back by their own countrymen using a war/military regime as a tool to kill off their profession/passion!

[Oxford]

Considering it has barely been allowed a mention in the hallowed arena maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be surprised so few people know about it or so holier than thou about it. Forbidden Game, Hidden Game.

[Harry Stottle]

It must be 15 years or so since I read the book, great read, but the statement right at the end, I found fascinating, I think it went:-

 "If Rugby League had never been invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

I took that as being Rugby League being the better game, Union would have evolved into a Rugby League type game, for obvious reasons it could not.

 

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

8 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

The traitors/thieves totally got away with it, some people have suggested it was the Germans seeing the RL code as being 'resistance'. IMHO they were certainly not 'resistance' as in freedom fighters against the Germans in any greater numbers than other French, it was the traitors that made the 'cannonball tackle' by aligning themselves with the military power to completely  destroy the very fabric of their more popular 'opponents'. 

Without that treacherous collaboration, both codes would end the war at exactly the same level as they went into it with losses for both codes in terms of lost lives, damage to property/plant and needing to rebuild but ultimately RL would still have been the more popular code by far, on fact post war the working mans game as it were would have flourished even further, maybe would have not seen the advent of TV as a threat to the game given its roots were still in essence still growing from the embers.

It's a national disgrace that the treachery has not been made more of and massive reparations paid out. Those on the receiving end must have felt like they had been betrayed twice and stabbed in the back by their own countrymen using a war/military regime as a tool to kill off their profession/passion!

The Germans weren't that interested in things like sport in their areas, and by the time that they occupied the whole of France Vichy had already done its worst. I seem to remember reading that RL is the only organisation supressed in the war that still hasn't had its assets returned by the state, not sure if that's true, perhaps someone on here knows.

[fieldofclothofgold]

7 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

The Germans weren't that interested in things like sport in their areas, and by the time that they occupied the whole of France Vichy had already done its worst. I seem to remember reading that RL is the only organisation supressed in the war that still hasn't had its assets returned by the state, not sure if that's true, perhaps someone on here knows.

Not even an apology only a admittance that it happened . I think that French RL really was a working mans game backed by the trade unions and took on all comers regardless of race colour or creed . Maybe that's the argument the RU and Vichy govt put to the NAZIS to get RL banned . This is a good sensible thread hope it stays that way 

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It must be 15 years or so since I read the book, great read, but the statement right at the end, I found fascinating, I think it went:-

 "If Rugby League had never been invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

I took that as being Rugby League being the better game, Union would have evolved into a Rugby League type game, for obvious reasons it could not.

 

I have long argued this with Rugby Union folk. Without wanting to go cross code Rugby League has evolved for a reason and if there had been no split then a united Rugby would have gone down the same road for the same reasons. The only reason Rugby Union hasn't since is because Rugby League hasn't already done so (although Rugby Union has arguably tweaked its laws as much as possible to become more like Rugby League without doing anything too obvious like having 13 players).

[meast]

Dave Woods was a guest speaker of the HGSA a few weeks ago and he said that while the game was "frowned upon" by the Vichy regime, he also stated that because it was attracting big crowds to it's games, the French TV companies were trying to get the games shown on TV, the RL authorities, meanwhile were reluctant as they thought it would affect attendances, and therefore, income.

The TV people went to Union instead who agreed, therefore it was RU that the French public saw on TV, became passionate about and ultimately attracted the attention and wealth.

Sounds about right!

[Lowdesert]

8 minutes ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

Not even an apology only a admittance that it happened . I think that French RL really was a working mans game backed by the trade unions and took on all comers regardless of race colour or creed . Maybe that's the argument the RU and Vichy govt put to the NAZIS to get RL banned . This is a good sensible thread hope it stays that way 

Not a lot of people discuss it when I’m there, but I’m not sure that  the relationship between Vichy and Germany went like that.  Michel Thomas book also gives a 1st hand insight into that era.  

If we put ourselves in their shoes, many had a choice - either do it or get shot.  What would we have done?  

People in the Govt. know what went on, so do Mairies, but for Catalans to start resurrecting the past is the wrong way.  It’s gone.  People in the UK will also be sitting uncomfortably .  But, the Catalans know fullwell how the system works and how to get backing.  For me, the obvious choice would be an long term attempt to get either an Euro championship there or even the WC.  

 

 

[Ant]

8 minutes ago, meast said:

Dave Woods was a guest speaker of the HGSA a few weeks ago and he said that while the game was "frowned upon" by the Vichy regime, he also stated that because it was attracting big crowds to it's games, the French TV companies were trying to get the games shown on TV, the RL authorities, meanwhile were reluctant as they thought it would affect attendances, and therefore, income.

The TV people went to Union instead who agreed, therefore it was RU that the French public saw on TV, became passionate about and ultimately attracted the attention and wealth.

Sounds about right!

Also sounds a remarkably similar tale today 

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Not a lot of people discuss it when I’m there, but I’m not sure that  the relationship between Vichy and Germany went like that.  Michel Thomas book also gives a 1st hand insight into that era.  

If we put ourselves in their shoes, many had a choice - either do it or get shot.  What would we have done?  

People in the Govt. know what went on, so do Mairies, but for Catalans to start resurrecting the past is the wrong way.  It’s gone.  People in the UK will also be sitting uncomfortably .  But, the Catalans know fullwell how the system works and how to get backing.  For me, the obvious choice would be an long term attempt to get either an Euro championship there or even the WC.  

 

 

I think you're right. For the Catalans/FFR13, there's no point bringing up the past and bad memories and demanding compensation. They can though subtly point out the lack of support the game has had and how they really should deserve more going forward. Those outside the situation such as journalists are the ones who can highlight the injustices

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, meast said:

Dave Woods was a guest speaker of the HGSA a few weeks ago and he said that while the game was "frowned upon" by the Vichy regime, he also stated that because it was attracting big crowds to it's games, the French TV companies were trying to get the games shown on TV, the RL authorities, meanwhile were reluctant as they thought it would affect attendances, and therefore, income.

The TV people went to Union instead who agreed, therefore it was RU that the French public saw on TV, became passionate about and ultimately attracted the attention and wealth.

Sounds about right!

They are 2 separate parts of the history though. The game resurrected itself even after the Vichy government stripped it of all it's assets during WW2 but in the 1950-60s it shot itself in the foot by spurning tv coverage

[Lowdesert]

15 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I think you're right. For the Catalans/FFR13, there's no point bringing up the past and bad memories and demanding compensation. They can though subtly point out the lack of support the game has had and how they really should deserve more going forward. Those outside the situation such as journalists are the ones who can highlight the injustices

I maybe should have identified short term goals as getting into the schools.  Others on here have better insight but many schools aren’t open to offering RL.  Hope Saturdays result kickstarts some inroads into that!

Politics in France is up another few notches to the UK.

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

Maybe that's the argument the RU and Vichy govt put to the NAZIS to get RL banned .

I think they only had to use the must be amateur card cos that was part of the Reich's ethos .... the rest they did themselves, on their own volition.

Has this thread still not been consigned to Hades?

[Pulga]

On 8/27/2018 at 6:59 AM, Kris said:

I met a nice chap in Devon who did documentaries for the beeb producer 

Took my copy of the book and gave it back a year later

His wife who was french had no idea and she had shared it with her friends

He had tried to float it as a doc but couldn't get the buy in to fund it 

Hopefully someone will

I tweeted  Russel crowe  a few years ago as well thought he would be a great treziste resistance fighter he never replied 

Would be great to do with this what codebreakers did for Wales RL

 

 

I agree. How good would either a documentary or a dramatization be!?

[Man of Kent]

21 hours ago, Damien said:

I have long argued this with Rugby Union folk. Without wanting to go cross code Rugby League has evolved for a reason and if there had been no split then a united Rugby would have gone down the same road for the same reasons. The only reason Rugby Union hasn't since is because Rugby League hasn't already done so (although Rugby Union has arguably tweaked its laws as much as possible to become more like Rugby League without doing anything too obvious like having 13 players).

Indeed. What is the modern union ruck other than a horizontal play the ball with the hands? Very different from rucking of yore.

Anyway, back to the thread. The BBC’s coverage is getting better all the time. 

They do a very good job with rugby league other than the regional, graveyard slot for the Super League Show.