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Denver test is dead

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2 hours ago, thirteenthman said:

Danny Lockwood in the League Weekly blames it all on the Aussies as well. And I don't understand his logic either.

The Denver test went ahead. OK, maybe confirmation came later than was expected, but it went ahead. Staging a RL match in Denver was always going to be a risk, but maybe Moore Sports financial guarantees were unrealistic. There initial hopes crowd wise certainly were.

And the argument I've read elsewhere on these forums that Americans who were largely unaware of RL's existence were put off attending because of newspaper reports in Sydney, is frankly ridiculous. 

Bearing in mind we haven't got official confirmation yet, if Moore Sports are unable to stage the RLWC, it will surely be due to their own financial mismanagement. It was always going to be a huge leap from staging one game in Denver in 2018 to staging a full blown RLWC just 7 years later.

I think the idea was to hold regular games in the States to raise the profile rather than play one game in Denver and then go straight to a WC. That's a really difficult thing to do when the world's major player isn't interested.

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The failure of the match was more than one issue, but the uncertainty of whether it would go ahead surely would impact on plans. Throwing resources at a game that was being sabotaged by the NRL wasn't the backdrop the event needed. For that the NRL should hang it’s head in shame. 

When you see how draining SOO is on top players, often rested afterwards, yet complaining of the same possibility after a sanctioned test match was parochial, biased and self-centred. Let's not expect RL to ever have a serious international presence while the current attitude and influence of the NRL continues. 

Had the NRL behaved itself then it would have kept itself above any recriminations.

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2 hours ago, B rad said:

Its hard to sell tickets when people are unsure if the event will even take place. Any American with twitter would have been aware of the actions to stop it.  I wonder how it would have gone if the NRL had gotten behind the idea. On that particular weekend it did outsell the Pacific Tests in Australia (which to be fair was a sell out in a smaller venue) so its not like it was a massive failure. 

The logic of the event was fair enough and worthy.

But since the money was not there it has worked out as a failure. I am not particularly criticising the promoter or the Aussies (despite their whinging). But in the end there appears to be a big deficit with the associations out of pocket, and logic says that  you cannot continue like that.

One has to question the financial validity of the exercise from the outset. And in hindsight the costs of the participants should have been paid up front ... and this might have stopped it in its tracks.

And the promoter is saying nothing it seems, this is a lack of clarity which begs a lot of questions.

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3 hours ago, thirteenthman said:

Danny Lockwood in the League Weekly blames it all on the Aussies as well. And I don't understand his logic either.

The Denver test went ahead. OK, maybe confirmation came later than was expected, but it went ahead. Staging a RL match in Denver was always going to be a risk, but maybe Moore Sports financial guarantees were unrealistic. There initial hopes crowd wise certainly were.

And the argument I've read elsewhere on these forums that Americans who were largely unaware of RL's existence were put off attending because of newspaper reports in Sydney, is frankly ridiculous. 

Bearing in mind we haven't got official confirmation yet, if Moore Sports are unable to stage the RLWC, it will surely be due to their own financial mismanagement. It was always going to be a huge leap from staging one game in Denver in 2018 to staging a full blown RLWC just 7 years later.

They weren't going to leap from one match straight to a full blown World Cup, they had a plan to build interest by staging multiple high-profile matches in the US between now and then.  If Moore Sports is in financial trouble because of their loss this time (and the website being "parked" would suggest that they are) that's obviously in doubt now.

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Mooresports are speculators.

The Baseball worked out.

The Denver game was always a wing and a prayer regardless of the NRL support or not.

The other project in Sydney with Snow sports was abandoned and put in liquidation/administration.

Chancer.

 

Edited by Allora
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3 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

I think the idea was to hold regular games in the States to raise the profile rather than play one game in Denver and then go straight to a WC. That's a really difficult thing to do when the world's major player isn't interested.

 

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

They weren't going to leap from one match straight to a full blown World Cup, they had a plan to build interest by staging multiple high-profile matches in the US between now and then.  If Moore Sports is in financial trouble because of their loss this time (and the website being "parked" would suggest that they are) that's obviously in doubt now.

Sorry, I worded my post badly. I know the plan was to stage more games, but to go from a standing start of just one game in 2018 in a country with next to no knowledge of RL, to hosting a full multi venue RLWC just 7 years later, regardless of how many matches you play in between is (or was) audacious, to put it mildly.

As for the plan to stage "multiple games" between now and 2025, well as far as we know there were 3 planned - one each in 2018/19/20. The original plan was for a domestic league as well, but that fell by the wayside too. Can you really build up the profile of a sport in just 7 years to such an extent that you can confidently stage the sports biggest global event there?

I just find it hard to believe that a company claiming to have the finances to stage multiple games over 7 years followed by a full blown World Cup could run into financial difficulties just because the first match didn't go according to plan. 

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7 minutes ago, thirteenthman said:

 

Sorry, I worded my post badly. I know the plan was to stage more games, but to go from a standing start of just one game in 2018 in a country with next to no knowledge of RL, to hosting a full multi venue RLWC just 7 years later, regardless of how many matches you play in between is (or was) audacious, to put it mildly.

As for the plan to stage "multiple games" between now and 2025, well as far as we know there were 3 planned - one each in 2018/19/20. The original plan was for a domestic league as well, but that fell by the wayside too. Can you really build up the profile of a sport in just 7 years to such an extent that you can confidently stage the sports biggest global event there?

I just find it hard to believe that a company claiming to have the finances to stage multiple games over 7 years followed by a full blown World Cup could run into financial difficulties just because the first match didn't go according to plan. 

I doubt Moore is searching around for pennies.

Far more likely they simply gave up and saw it as throwing good money after bad.

At that point the relationship between Moore sports and the rfl/NZRL became far less of a priority. 

It's less that they keeled over because of 20k missing fans. Just more that the game wasn't ever really going to give the game the commitment it needed to breakthrough in the US. 

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I doubt Moore is searching around for pennies.

Far more likely they simply gave up and saw it as throwing good money after bad.

At that point the relationship between Moore sports and the rfl/NZRL became far less of a priority. 

It's less that they keeled over because of 20k missing fans. Just more that the game wasn't ever really going to give the game the commitment it needed to breakthrough in the US. 

That is why any further expansion attempts in NA should be concentrated exclusively in CANADA...so obvious.  For some reason a successful expansion in Canada just doesn't hold the same appeal as a failed US expansion attempt for people over there.  Weird.

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2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

That is why any further expansion attempts in NA should be concentrated exclusively in CANADA...so obvious.  For some reason a successful expansion in Canada just doesn't hold the same appeal as a failed US expansion attempt for people over there.  Weird.

Was anyone offering them money to stage it in Canada?

It's not an either or issue.

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10 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Was anyone offering them money to stage it in Canada?

It's not an either or issue.

Was it not to be a North American based World Cup?  

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18 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

And what if they’d at least matched or bettered the half arsed effort put in by the Aussies last time they hosted?

That was never going to happen. Even a competent organiser would struggle to pull off a successful RLWC in the USA, let alone a huckster.

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5 hours ago, eal said:

That was never going to happen. Even a competent organiser would struggle to pull off a successful RLWC in the USA, let alone a huckster.

So the people responsible for the 2017 WC were ‘hucksters’ too? After all they couldn’t pull off a successful competition in the backyard of the biggest market the game has. It’s easy this character assassination lark isn’t it?

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One of the things I am interested in here is whether the RFL and NZRL have spent money on this.

There was a suggestion of $400k that the NZRL was owed, which suggests some money was paid. I am also interested in whether they have had all their costs covered so far. 

This really should have been risk free for the RFL and NZRL and I hope they weren't naive on this.

If they had full costs covered and are now talking about a loss of 'profit' on the match, that is easier to stomach. 

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28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

One of the things I am interested in here is whether the RFL and NZRL have spent money on this.

There was a suggestion of $400k that the NZRL was owed, which suggests some money was paid. I am also interested in whether they have had all their costs covered so far. 

This really should have been risk free for the RFL and NZRL and I hope they weren't naive on this.

If they had full costs covered and are now talking about a loss of 'profit' on the match, that is easier to stomach. 

I thought they were due £500k each. So if NZ are owed £400k I’m assuming both countries got £100k up front which should cover costs. This is just going of figures that are in the press so how accurate this is I’ve no idea. 

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1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

I thought they were due £500k each. So if NZ are owed £400k I’m assuming both countries got £100k up front which should cover costs. This is just going of figures that are in the press so how accurate this is I’ve no idea. 

I think the NZ number was dollars, c£220k

 

Not sure if the whole thing was dollars. If they have only had $100k, then that would soon go.

Edited by Dave T

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I see that in a article in the D.Mirror about the Aus V Tonga test & the loss of the Denver game Nige is showing the decisiveness and leadership qualities that highlited his tenure as RLF CEO. Talk about corporate speak gone mad, say a lot without committing to or doing anything, missing out all the while the bleedin' obvious, Rimmer is just a 'not so' mini-me.

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20 hours ago, Kayakman said:

That is why any further expansion attempts in NA should be concentrated exclusively in CANADA...so obvious.  For some reason a successful expansion in Canada just doesn't hold the same appeal as a failed US expansion attempt for people over there.  Weird.

While I don't support a WC as it's the showpiece of the sport and I feel that needs guaranteed crowds,  I will agree with you on Canada being the best focus for NA expansion as regardless of what happens with TWP they have been a success in terms of bringing in crowds and selling merchandise which is actually a big achievement given the gates in SL and even the NRL. 

A second Pro team could work well and surely it's worth having a game here to expand on the TWP.... Maybe England v France. 

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12 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

While I don't support a WC as it's the showpiece of the sport and I feel that needs guaranteed crowds,  I will agree with you on Canada being the best focus for NA expansion as regardless of what happens with TWP they have been a success in terms of bringing in crowds and selling merchandise which is actually a big achievement given the gates in SL and even the NRL. 

A second Pro team could work well and surely it's worth having a game here to expand on the TWP.... Maybe England v France. 

Its simple common sense..so obvious...you should always build towards your proven strengths not amplify your clear weaknesses.  There is no shame in learning from your shortcomings.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think the NZ number was dollars, c£220k

 

Not sure if the whole thing was dollars. If they have only had $100k, then that would soon go.

Pretty sure I’ve seen it as £500k as the pay off so if the Kiwis are only owed £220k then that’s better than I thought. 

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The NZRL have received less than half of their agreed payment from Denver test promoter Jason Moore and are understood to be owed a six-figure sum but face a battle through the US legal system to recoup the outstanding amount.

"We're not going to Denver in 2019, I can assure you of that," said Peters.

"We've tried to engage with him without success. We've reserved all of our rights under the contract and have contractual remedies for breach.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/league/news/article.cfm?c_id=79&objectid=12119486

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Isn't Moore Australia based? I'm sure he is. Moore Sports at least is an Australian based agency, so not sure how and why the US legal system would be troubled.

Edited by EastLondonMike

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1 hour ago, EastLondonMike said:

Isn't Moore Australia based? I'm sure he is. Moore Sports at least is an Australian based agency, so not sure how and why the US legal system would be troubled.

I thought he was an Aussie based in the USA?

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1 hour ago, EastLondonMike said:

Isn't Moore Australia based? I'm sure he is. Moore Sports at least is an Australian based agency, so not sure how and why the US legal system would be troubled.

I'd have thought on a risky project like this he would have set up a separate company to dump all of the risk into and protect his main company at the same time. If the new company goes bust then it doesn't impact on his existing one.

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1 hour ago, EastLondonMike said:

They have offices in Sydney, New York and Hong Kong. A US company was assumedly set up specifically for the US operations. Several articles have referred to issues with a US entity and US tax laws. 

Moore Sports set up a separate company called Moore Snow Sports which was to have run a snowboarding event in Sydney. It was this that went into liquidation in July. LinkedIn shows that Moore Sports head of Commercial Operations left the business around the same time. 

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