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Mr Plow

2025 World Cup

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25 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes all proven fan basese

Barcelona is a risk, but London and Cardiff both have delivered good RL events over the years (even if it is with the traditional fanbase).

I'd be using Magic Weekend style events to create festival weekend takeovers in key places.

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5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

It's totally unrealistic if what you said yesterday happens

"While I don't support a WC (in NA) I will agree with you on Canada being the best focus for NA expansion as regardless of what happens with TWP they have been a success.A second Pro team could work well and surely it's worth having a game here to expand on the TWP.... Maybe England v France". 

The lack of any North American investment or participation in RL in Canada and the USA, and the lack of interest for the Denver test, save an Aussie throwing his money away on an Aussie/English team still leads you to effectively believe TWP should go into Superleague and someone like Montreal (who do not exist and never will)  should follow them.

That clearly means two English clubs are removed from SL and above all this Toulouse fail to get into Superleague despite having tried to get in for 22 long years.

Why do you think the French would happily host or help host a World cup if Toulouse were snubbed for TWP and Montreal replaced say Salford? Why do you think France would happily go to play in Canada to boost the non existent game there when their own prospective second SL side is snubbed in favour of North American clubs??. Answers please??

Above all if France are to host it they need to be able to compete and they cannot do this with one hand tied behind their back by refusing Toulouse a place in SL for TWP, a second French club can assist the French side, International RL is most important.

And when you have Montreal and Toronto in Superleague how will the Canadian RL raise a Canadian team for this World Cup in France 2025?? Are 30 Anglo-Aussies to be passed off as Canadians?? Two things....

1. It has always been said International RL is the most important aspect of our game NOT club rugby. Therefore Toulouse over Toronto regardless of whether TWP win the MPG. ESPECIALLY if France are to host the World cup.

2. It is a complete myth that whatever alleged "crowds" TWP are getting makes them a success. Why don't you explain that soundbite. for that is all it is. Perez never set crowds as a measure of success. What you are doing is inventing a criteria to use to declare TWP a success because they failed to get a paying TV contract (more chance of a French one with Toulouse in) and fail to develop any players and fail to have a international side of any strength as well.

When Denver attracted 19,000 did you think that was a success?? Moore appears to have gone bust on that Crowd and the RLWC has all but gone from the USA and Canada. 

With great respect to you, you have shown us a great example of the blind enthusiasm a few people have for North American expansion that leads them to be unable to grasp facts and reason......Yes I have  put on the same old record onto the record player, but only in response to the same old worn and badly cracked record being played again for the thousandth time that TWP are the saviour of our game despite the collapse of the world cup there and the total ambivalence of North American investors to Rugby League.

Okay here's my answers and a explanation. As you know based on my posts over the last year I am not a wholehearted fan of TWP and remain sceptical about some aspects of their set up such as player development and travel issues. 

That being said, the attendances, new ideas on marketing and a decent  night TV slot for sky, means there's some good things too. 

I don't consider International RL the peak of RL. While I'm a big fan of international RL, I see Wigan, Saints, St George, the Rabbitohs as the heart of RL. This being said, I love team GB, the Ashes, France, Kiwis, and the Kumuls and feel that the likes of Serbia are doing good things. 

Denver I do not see as a success neither a failure. A grade C- on it overall. It showed the sport can sell. I would put a follow up in Canada in a smaller ground say 25k and look to sell out. I never wanted a WC in America or Canada as it's not ready for it and may never be. 

About SL. I would guarantee two French teams SL. I would have 1 or 2 Canadian teams. The Canadian teams would have to pick up travel costs and be exempt from SL europe TV money as a price of being in the League. French and Canadian teams would be relegation exempt. England would have 10-11 teams. Salford while a admirable club may be better off out of SL in a Proper salary capped at 800k championship. 

The division below the league one should be capped at 400k.

I feel all of the above offers a reasonable balance between all out expansion and not expanding at all. 

Edited by Southerner80
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8 hours ago, Reverend Ram said:

Actually it is 2054!

That’s the centenary of the first WC not when RL was first played in France. More tea Vicar?

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I called this back in April. Moore Sports (all two of them) don’t seem like a serious outfit.

France + Barcelona is a good call. Or “Catalonia” (both sides of the border).

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18 hours ago, Southerner80 said:

Okay here's my answers and a explanation. As you know based on my posts over the last year I am not a wholehearted fan of TWP and remain sceptical about some aspects of their set up .  I never wanted a WC in America or Canada as it's not ready for it and may never be. About SL. I would guarantee two French teams SL. I would have 1 or 2 Canadian teams. The Canadian teams would have to pick up travel costs and be exempt from SL europe TV money as a price of being in the League. French and Canadian teams would be relegation exempt. England would have 10-11 teams.

I feel all of the above offers a reasonable balance between all out expansion and not expanding at all. 

That is a very polite and well thought out reply, a great change from the usual abuse others reply with! In the end you concede my Toulouse point which I thank you for so in the first instance we have the reality of the MPG likely to pit Toulouse against Toronto.

2025 world cup So for me if this is to be in France in full or part you cannot hang the French International team out to dry by not allowing Toulouse into Superleague so two French clubs can seek to develop enough home grown players to make France competitive at that world cup, and two French clubs can stimulate more spectators in France to watch the World cup, and more sponsors in France get involved.

Canada in the World cup 2025 They just cannot do it, they don't have the players and they won't bring any fans to France. 

You finish with the idea of 14 clubs in Superleague which nicely provides the two French clubs AND raises TWP into the top flight. So you therefore avoid the conflict of the possibility that the MPG may elevate Toronto to Superleague at a time when we must elevate Toulouse if we are to have a World cup in France 2025, it has to be now to develop players and Interest in France.

The real life plans are for a 12 team SL, 14 was dismissed due to a lack of players last year, it won't happen. Toulouse can develop them Toronto cannot. So my friend you duck out of the hard question - it's one or the other into SL not both. Which one?

21 hours ago, JohnM said:

I'm a big supporter of Toronto making it to SuperLeague, of the dream that it is, (in conflict with reality) 

Cats and Toulouse in SuperLeague, though, is in my view, something that could sustain or even increase the presence  of the game in the French heartlands. So for me, the WC in North America was never going to happen. Holding it in the French heartlands -and the heartlands only - forget Paris, Lyon, and Barcelona -,  would work for me, though. 

The downside of Toronto, and of Cats wnning the cup , is the growth of a romantic notion of expansion that seems to ignore the real issues

And so again John we have you sitting on the fence as regards the likely MPG of Toronto.v.Toulouse - which one should be promoted if the World cup 2025 is likely to be in Europe? You play the same game of saying "BOTH"

SL is pretty clear only one goes up. If TWP win the MPG Rimmer was clear in January TWP are not guaranteed to go up so there is the option to put Toulouse up even though they may lose that game. The RFL and SL have set the scene for only one of the two being able to go up. Which is it to be John if the World cup 2025 is to be in France not NA even in part?

Perhaps another day on another thread you perfect gents, who have fallen in love with TWP (Your "Romantic notion" John), still believe they should go into SL, even though the North American dream has now all but collapsed to nothing? There are no North American Investors for RL and probably never will be. But lets leave that one for now!!

Edited by The Parksider
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What an absolute load of rubbish,only you could use the World Cup as another stick to beat TWP..

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I like sitting on the fence.  I have built-in protection from pointed fence posts.  Dont need evidence as they are asserions.

Toronto. - They need patience, detetmination, deep pockets and a long term vision. I do see a future for them as a sustainable SL club, tne only one in North America for many years, as it will take many years for any sort of local structure to be established. Having SL clubs playing in Toronto on a regular basis will really help Toronto and RL  become established. I belive that its poosible for the game to find the funds for SL clubs to travel to Toronto. After say three years in SL, then maybe just maybe, another NA club might be born...but dont get carried awsy with some North American league.

Toulouse. - in a sense, shows  Toronto a model to copy.  Slow patient growth etc, but with the advantage of an existing RL fan and player base that Toronto will never have, not for many years. Also illustrates how eventually a second club might start in Canada, as Toulouse is to Catalans, Toronto to some other nearby city.

World Cup in North America. -  no, no, no, no, 1000 times no. Denver waste of time and money. 

World Cup in France. -yes, but I'd restrict it to their heartlands. Possibly split it between England and France, but a big believer in keeping it simple, given some of the strange WC formats in the past.

The MPG? Whatever the outcome, I'd restructure so T and T are both in SL next season.

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As to what should happen, there should be a due process. I think that it should be for anyone genuinely interested to make a case, and for that to be stress tested. As I understand it, NA was granted the 2025 WC subject to demonstrating its ability to deliver it. 7 (seven) years out, it might look more doubtful, but there plenty of time to reassess and seek new bids. Maybe NSW? Maybe France? Maybe across Europe. 

I like the idea of a France heartlands World Cup. Selfishly, as the kids will have flown the nest, autumn in the south of France would be a dream. 

I fail to see why Toronto are getting flak in this context (though of course one man’s obsession would explain their posts) - last time I looked they have done everything asked of them, and have not insisted on holding a World Cup, 

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South of France would be ideal.

Weather will still be relatively nice, its a beautiful part of the world with an existing RL fan base proven to get out to big matches Easily within traveling distance from the heartlands.

Also allows for games to be spread a little further quite easily, no reason a game can't be sneaked over the border in to Italy or Spain.

Id say that even if we dont wait 7 years for the WC we need to find another property to get a big international comp in France

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4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

That is a very polite and well thought out reply, a great change from the usual abuse others reply with! In the end you concede my Toulouse point which I thank you for so in the first instance we have the reality of the MPG likely to pit Toulouse against Toronto.

2025 world cup So for me if this is to be in France in full or part you cannot hang the French International team out to dry by not allowing Toulouse into Superleague so two French clubs can seek to develop enough home grown players to make France competitive at that world cup, and two French clubs can stimulate more spectators in France to watch the World cup, and more sponsors in France get involved.

Canada in the World cup 2025 They just cannot do it, they don't have the players and they won't bring any fans to France. 

You finish with the idea of 14 clubs in Superleague which nicely provides the two French clubs AND raises TWP into the top flight. So you therefore avoid the conflict of the possibility that the MPG may elevate Toronto to Superleague at a time when we must elevate Toulouse if we are to have a World cup in France 2025, it has to be now to develop players and Interest in France.

The real life plans are for a 12 team SL, 14 was dismissed due to a lack of players last year, it won't happen. Toulouse can develop them Toronto cannot. So my friend you duck out of the hard question - it's one or the other into SL not both. Which one?

And so again John we have you sitting on the fence as regards the likely MPG of Toronto.v.Toulouse - which one should be promoted if the World cup 2025 is likely to be in Europe? You play the same game of saying "BOTH"

SL is pretty clear only one goes up. If TWP win the MPG Rimmer was clear in January TWP are not guaranteed to go up so there is the option to put Toulouse up even though they may lose that game. The RFL and SL have set the scene for only one of the two being able to go up. Which is it to be John if the World cup 2025 is to be in France not NA even in part?

Perhaps another day on another thread you perfect gents, who have fallen in love with TWP (Your "Romantic notion" John), still believe they should go into SL, even though the North American dream has now all but collapsed to nothing? There are no North American Investors for RL and probably never will be. But lets leave that one for now!!

Ultimately I would support Toulouse over Twp if there has to be only one of them as they are of greater significance to RL. 

I hope for both though..... 

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21 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

Ultimately I would support Toulouse over Twp if there has to be only one of them as they are of greater significance to RL. 

I hope for both though..... 

But their inclusion/exclusion has nothing to do with the choice of who hosts a future World Cup,despite what the South Leeds oracle makes up.

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7 minutes ago, EF2000 said:

The 2025 World Cup is not going to happen at all. MSI is administration.

Those two things clearly arent inextricably linked.

There almost certainly will be a 2025 world cup whether MSI are bust, growing or worth billions.

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What a France 2025 / South 2025 could look like, stadium wise

 

GS
----
Carcassonne      / Albert-Domec           / 10 000
Toulouse             / Ernest-Wallon          / 20 000 (or better, a proprer 10K+ RL stadium)
Perpignan           / Gilbert Brutus           / 13 000  (with a new stand at last) 
Montpellier         / Yves du Manoir        / 15 500
Albi                      / Stadium municipal   / 13 000
Avignon              / Parc des Sports        / 17 500
Béziers               / Méditerrannée           / 18 000 
Nîmes                / New stadium              / 15 000 

GS+Finals
-----------------
Toulouse             / Stadium  municipal   / 32 000
Montpellier         / New stadium              / 30 000

 

8 cities (7 from the Occitania region + Avignon), 10 stadiums. 

 

Yay ?

 

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14 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I like the idea of a France heartlands World Cup. Autumn in the south of France would be a dream. 

I fail to see why Toronto are getting flak in this context (though of course one man’s obsession would explain their posts) - last time I looked they have done everything asked of them, and have not insisted on holding a World Cup, 

Please do not embarrass yourself talking about obsessions, as your long standing obsession with “conferences” year after year may just win you the accolade of number one obsessive on here. You are making things up. Nothing was “asked” of TWP.

People wanted the 2021 world cup for the USA, which went to England, so the RLIF decided that maybe it would be a good idea to provisionally allocate the 2025 cup to the usa, AND Canada. This meant some sort of RL infrastructure was needed and Perez saw his chance to push for Toronto to get into Superleague on the back of that wave.

Far from being "asked " of anything Perez quickly offered the idea Toronto would develop grid iron players to stock his and other North American clubs, the next one after TWP being Montreal for 2019. You have to be very naive not to understand the pressure Nigel Wood was under to allow Perez and TWP into the RFL.

That being the Nigel Wood who is now with the RLIF.

That TWP simply did not bother to develop North American players and Montreal turned out to be nonsense meant that far from working towards the World Cup, this was just about Argyle the Aussie getting his own club.  Moore sports was involved in pushing for the USA to get the 2025 world cup, and if you can face the reality check rather than being engulfed in "Conferences" and "Transatlantic leagues" Moore himself dismissed the idea of TWP  being of any value to the 2025 World Cup.

The Canada RL association expected three Canadian venues to get games - Toronto, Vancouver and "a city in Alberta" so again it was obvious why Perez made his move, and obvious why Wood was drawn in to the idea that the game over there could expand on the idea of hosting the World cup 2025..

Now that is all dead it's quite obvious having one Aussie/English team with an Aussie owner joining from 3,000 miles away is nothing to do with "expansion"  at all, which is why Rimmer warned promotion for TWP was not a given even if they won it on the pitch. Sadly however, as some more honest and candid posters than you are now showing, people here have invested so much hope and emotion into  their love for the idea of North American expansion, that they can't let go. They say love is blind, just like your love of conferences.

It would be ridiculous to deny a REAL LIFE French club the chance to work alongside Les Catalans in Superleague  to ensure that the French game strengthens enough to make a further contribution to Superleague Europe, and an impact for the 2025 World Cup. 

Clearly that doesn't bother you. But I bet it will bother true expansionists and the French game if they are expected to host the World Cup in France after being denied by Perez's broken promises and Argylle's plaything.

Edited by The Parksider
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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

Please do not embarrass yourself talking about obsessions, as your long standing obsession with “conferences” year after year may just win you the accolade of number one obsessive on here. You are making things up. Nothing was “asked” of TWP.

People wanted the 2021 world cup for the USA, which went to England, so the RLIF decided that maybe it would be a good idea to provisionally allocate the 2025 cup to the usa, AND Canada. This meant some sort of RL infrastructure was needed and Perez saw his chance to push for Toronto to get into Superleague on the back of that wave.

Far from being "asked " of anything Perez quickly offered the idea Toronto would develop grid iron players to stock his and other North American clubs, the next one after TWP being Montreal for 2019. You have to be very naive not to understand the pressure Nigel Wood was under to allow Perez and TWP into the RFL.

That being the Nigel Wood who is now with the RLIF.

That TWP simply did not bother to develop North American players and Montreal turned out to be nonsense meant that far from working towards the World Cup, this was just about Argyle the Aussie getting his own club.  Moore sports was involved in pushing for the USA to get the 2025 world cup, and if you can face the reality check rather than being engulfed in "Conferences" and "Transatlantic leagues" Moore himself dismissed the idea of TWP  being of any value to the 2025 World Cup.

The Canada RL association expected three Canadian venues to get games - Toronto, Vancouver and "a city in Alberta" so again it was obvious why Perez made his move, and obvious why Wood was drawn in to the idea that the game over there could expand on the idea of hosting the World cup 2025..

Now that is all dead it's quite obvious having one Aussie/English team with an Aussie owner joining from 3,000 miles away is nothing to do with "expansion"  at all, which is why Rimmer warned promotion for TWP was not a given even if they won it on the pitch. Sadly however, as some more honest and candid posters than you are now showing, people here have invested so much hope and emotion into  their love for the idea of North American expansion, that they can't let go. They say love is blind, just like your love of conferences.

It would be ridiculous to deny a REAL LIFE French club the chance to work alongside Les Catalans in Superleague  to ensure that the French game strengthens enough to make a further contribution to Superleague Europe, and an impact for the 2025 World Cup. 

Clearly that doesn't bother you. But I bet it will bother true expansionists and the French game if they are expected to host the World Cup in France after being denied by Perez's broken promises and Argylle's plaything.

Parky! Perez was the dice. Argyle is the seven. We need promotion, we need money. Our game is dieing.

Can you help?

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21 hours ago, Gambass said:

What a France 2025 / South 2025 could look like, stadium wise

 

GS
----
Carcassonne      / Albert-Domec           / 10 000
Toulouse             / Ernest-Wallon          / 20 000 (or better, a proprer 10K+ RL stadium)
Perpignan           / Gilbert Brutus           / 13 000  (with a new stand at last) 
Montpellier         / Yves du Manoir        / 15 500
Albi                      / Stadium municipal   / 13 000
Avignon              / Parc des Sports        / 17 500
Béziers               / Méditerrannée           / 18 000 
Nîmes                / New stadium              / 15 000 

GS+Finals
-----------------
Toulouse             / Stadium  municipal   / 32 000
Montpellier         / New stadium              / 30 000

 

8 cities (7 from the Occitania region + Avignon), 10 stadiums. 

 

Yay ?

 

It's perfect. I am sure there are many super league fans who have travelled down there with their team who would be incredibly excited about seeing International RL there. Scheduled well, it could be brilliant. It is a genuine holiday and RL fix for the family too.

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22 hours ago, Gambass said:

What a France 2025 / South 2025 could look like, stadium wise

 

GS
----
Carcassonne      / Albert-Domec           / 10 000
Toulouse             / Ernest-Wallon          / 20 000 (or better, a proprer 10K+ RL stadium)
Perpignan           / Gilbert Brutus           / 13 000  (with a new stand at last) 
Montpellier         / Yves du Manoir        / 15 500
Albi                      / Stadium municipal   / 13 000
Avignon              / Parc des Sports        / 17 500
Béziers               / Méditerrannée           / 18 000 
Nîmes                / New stadium              / 15 000 

GS+Finals
-----------------
Toulouse             / Stadium  municipal   / 32 000
Montpellier         / New stadium              / 30 000

 

8 cities (7 from the Occitania region + Avignon), 10 stadiums. 

 

Yay ?

 

Great line up but.... 

It's the World Cup for goodness sake!

Semi final double header and final in Marseilles. 

If we can't get 50k for both of those events then France isn't ready yet. I'm confident we would, you could take in both in a 10-day round trip from UK with enough time to book ahead. 

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Just now, Toby Chopra said:

Great line up but.... 

It's the World Cup for goodness sake!

Semi final double header and final in Marseilles. 

If we can't get 50k for both of those events then France isn't ready yet. I'm confident we would, you could take in both in a 10-day round trip from UK with enough time to book ahead. 

 

Then, it isn't and won't be for a very, very long time (if ever). Not enough locals would turn up, nor enough english will make the trip.

 

I very much understand the argument btw. But if there has to be a world cup in France, you can forget about 50K+ (full) stadiums. It won't happen.

 

Does a world cup in France (or elsewhere) worth a relative hit in overall prestige ? (an open question really)

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17 minutes ago, Gambass said:

 

Then, it isn't and won't be for a very, very long time (if ever). Not enough locals would turn up, nor enough english will make the trip.

 

I very much understand the argument btw. But if there has to be a world cup in France, you can forget about 50K+ (full) stadiums. It won't happen.

 

Does a world cup in France (or elsewhere) worth a relative hit in overall prestige ? (an open question really)

If you can't use a World Cup to reach out beyond your usual fan base - even for the final - then you've got to question if it's worth it. 

New Zealand would do a better job. In fact I remember when they held the other lot's World Cup, one of their top officials said it was probably the last time they'd be able to host it due the changing economics of such global events. They'd be up for ours. 

A similar stadium line up to your French proposal, but with NZ games and finals in the big cities would do fine I think. And of course the earlier you sign off on the dates the more English will travel. 

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At the very least, France should be playing their group games in France, and possibly their knockout match(es) too.

They should be doing likewise in 2021 too. I understand that the funding is devolved and therefore all the matches are supposed to be played in England, but it's criminal to host a world cup in the northern hemisphere and not have France playing their matches actually in France. It should be all out promotion with France, because they are the only realistic hope of having another top level European team.

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Just now, Toby Chopra said:

If you can't use a World Cup to reach out beyond your usual fan base - even for the final - then you've got to question if it's worth it. 

 

You will (I mean, we haven't seen a 20K+ crowd in France for half a century...), but probably not to the extent some would like.

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3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Great line up but.... 

It's the World Cup for goodness sake!

Semi final double header and final in Marseilles. 

If we can't get 50k for both of those events then France isn't ready yet. I'm confident we would, you could take in both in a 10-day round trip from UK with enough time to book ahead. 

"World Cup" with double headers = Mickey Mouse tournament masquerading as a World Cup.

Edited by Big Picture
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