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Mr Plow

2025 World Cup

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1 hour ago, Gambass said:

 

You will (I mean, we haven't seen a 20K+ crowd in France for half a century...), but probably not to the extent some would like.

I think you would get more than you think. World Cups always hold some sort of prestige and a fair amount will travel to it. Certainly from the UK. I think people underestimate how much that would contribute. Especially if games are focused around the weekends with games played in a small geographical area for that day/weekend. People will attend 2/3/4 games in a weekend.

A logistically well planned event should see upwards of 25k for the England matches, you would hope of an ambitious target of the same for the French matches, and good crowds for the Australia and NZ matches. Planned well a fair few of those would double or treble up on some of the lesser matches. That would give you a good base from the existing fans, if you can the reach out to the french casuals and wider pubic you have the basis for a really successful comp.

France have had some decent attendances despite not really been given anything and with virtually no visiting support, focus it on that area between Toulouse and Toulon and people will make a trip of it, take in a few matches, some will go for a weekend, some will go for a couple of weeks (the real diehards will probably try and do it all).

I see no reason why, an ambitious, well planned (with plenty of notice) French RLWC couldnt look to match the RLWC 2017 average of 13.5k a match, which whilst it was disappointing for Australia, I think that would be a success for France.

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 12:41 AM, The Parksider said:

1) Please do not embarrass yourself talking about obsessions, as your long standing obsession with “conferences” year after year may just win you the accolade of number one obsessive on here. You are making things up. Nothing was “asked” of TWP.

2) People wanted the 2021 world cup for the USA, which went to England, so the RLIF decided that maybe it would be a good idea to provisionally allocate the 2025 cup to the usa, AND Canada. This meant some sort of RL infrastructure was needed and Perez saw his chance to push for Toronto to get into Superleague on the back of that wave.

3) Far from being "asked " of anything Perez quickly offered the idea Toronto would develop grid iron players to stock his and other North American clubs, the next one after TWP being Montreal for 2019. You have to be very naive not to understand the pressure Nigel Wood was under to allow Perez and TWP into the RFL.

That being the Nigel Wood who is now with the RLIF.

That TWP simply did not bother to develop North American players and Montreal turned out to be nonsense meant that far from working towards the World Cup, this was just about Argyle the Aussie getting his own club. 

4) Moore sports was involved in pushing for the USA to get the 2025 world cup, and if you can face the reality check rather than being engulfed in "Conferences" and "Transatlantic leagues" Moore himself dismissed the idea of TWP  being of any value to the 2025 World Cup.

5) The Canada RL association expected three Canadian venues to get games - Toronto, Vancouver and "a city in Alberta" so again it was obvious why Perez made his move, and obvious why Wood was drawn in to the idea that the game over there could expand on the idea of hosting the World cup 2025..

6) Now that is all dead it's quite obvious having one Aussie/English team with an Aussie owner joining from 3,000 miles away is nothing to do with "expansion"  at all, which is why Rimmer warned promotion for TWP was not a given even if they won it on the pitch.

7) Sadly however, as some more honest and candid posters than you are now showing, people here have invested so much hope and emotion into  their love for the idea of North American expansion, that they can't let go. They say love is blind, just like your love of conferences.

 8 ) It would be ridiculous to deny a REAL LIFE French club the chance to work alongside Les Catalans in Superleague  to ensure that the French game strengthens enough to make a further contribution to Superleague Europe, and an impact for the 2025 World Cup. 

Clearly that doesn't bother you. But I bet it will bother true expansionists and the French game if they are expected to host the World Cup in France after being denied by Perez's broken promises and Argylle's plaything.

Taking your points in turn:

1) I appreciate your insight into obsession. While disagreeing with it, I bow to your expertise;

2) I think you are simply stating what happened. Yes, it was provisional (and it is still in the distant future), and so the onus was on NA to make its case;

3) am struggling to see the point being made. TWP have done everything asked of them, and brought a breath of fresh air to League 1 and the Championship and the game over here. Their crowds are wonderful and they are taking our game to a new audience. A lot to like, most observers would have thought;

4) I am also struggling with the point here. There seem to be a couple of non sequiteurs and a complete dead end in this sentence. You are right that Moore was involved in the bid for the 2025 World Cup. Great spot;

5) great idea to have Canada involved in any NA world cup. We can agree that would be a great thing;

6) this makes no sense at all. You are concluding that Moore's struggles demonstrate something about TWP, having yourself been at pains in previous paragraphs to separate the 2. They are 2 completely different things. You may as well point to Newcastle United's struggles under Ashley as a sign of TWP's ownership issues on the basis that they both play in black and white;

7) here, you accuse me of dishonesty. Now, sunshine, I would hold back on that if I were you. Last time I looked this was a forum for airing (and trying in some cases to make sense of) points of view. As for lacking candour, that doesn't make the remotest sense. Maybe your spell checker replaced the word you were looking for? You go back to my proposal for conferences for some reason. I should be interested if you can find a single instance in which I have presented that as anything other than a straw man (either look that up, or ask an adult to help you); and

8 ) now we veer across the channel. As it happens, I agree that Toulouse would be a great addition to SL, and would be delighted to see them there and thriving. I have not seen much evidence to suggest that they are ready, and would take advantage of the opportunity. Ironically, if we adopted my conference straw man, they could develop at their own rate within SL2, and find themselves at the top table when they are string enough on and off the field. On that basis, I will assume for now that you are warming to my conference idea. Much obliged.

Edited by Exiled Wiganer
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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:28 PM, scotchy1 said:

I see no reason why, an ambitious, well planned (with plenty of notice) French RLWC couldnt look to match the RLWC 2017 average of 13.5k a match, which whilst it was disappointing for Australia, I think that would be a success for France.

I don't disagree with the first part of your post but would a WC in France with an average crowd of 13.5k deliver enough profit? The Aussies still haven't officially old us they only made circa $5m instead of the projected $12m. Is there enough profit in a French based WC?

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1 minute ago, deluded pom? said:

I don't disagree with the first part of your post but would a WC in France with an average crowd of 13.5k deliver enough profit? The Aussies still haven't officially old us they only made circa $5m instead of the projected $12m. Is there enough profit in a French based WC?

Would we get a massive amount more going back to Aus though?

I think the lasting effects of a successful world cup in France would be worth taking something of a financial hit.

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

Would we get a massive amount more going back to Aus though?

I think the lasting effects of a successful world cup in France would be worth taking something of a financial hit.

Oh I don't disagree. Australian based WCs just don't generate the kind of money we need to take the international game forward and we can't keep holding the WC here so we may as well spread the love and hopefully make as much money, if not more, as an Aussie WC does.

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3 hours ago, Gorbals said:

How much money did the 2013 WC make out of interest? Anybody got as reliable source? Cheers

 

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/12196/9242180/rugby-league-world-cup-generates-substantial-profits

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-01/rugby-league-world-cup-chiefs-reveal-6.65m-profit/5358016

£3.7M plus. An exchange rate at the time of $1.80 to the pound. North of $6.5M.

Edited by deluded pom?

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Never been able to find much tbf. I know 2013 had circa 450k attendees and 2017 had 380k attendees, but it was dirt cheap in 2013 and relatively expensive in 2017, so always wondered how that translated into profits

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52 minutes ago, Gorbals said:

Never been able to find much tbf. I know 2013 had circa 450k attendees and 2017 had 380k attendees, but it was dirt cheap in 2013 and relatively expensive in 2017, so always wondered how that translated into profits

Problem is those relatively expensive seats in 2017 stayed empty.

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380,000 of them didn't though. Could it be that the gate receipts in 2017 exceeded the gate receipts in 2013, despite 70,000 fewer sales?

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32 minutes ago, Gorbals said:

380,000 of them didn't though. Could it be that the gate receipts in 2017 exceeded the gate receipts in 2013, despite 70,000 fewer sales?

It may have. But I'm not really sure of the point. 2017 was meant to deliver considerable growth on 2013.

What we know so far is it reduced live crowds and missed it's financial target.

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It may have. But I'm not really sure of the point. 2017 was meant to deliver considerable growth on 2013.

What we know so far is it reduced live crowds and missed it's financial target.

What we don’t know is how much 2017 made because the Australians won’t tell us. 2008 made £2M.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulfletcher/2008/11/what_was_the_point_of_the_rugb.html

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9 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

I don't disagree with the first part of your post but would a WC in France with an average crowd of 13.5k deliver enough profit? The Aussies still haven't officially old us they only made circa $5m instead of the projected $12m. Is there enough profit in a French based WC?

Much lower travel costs though, no in-country flights.

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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

It may have. But I'm not really sure of the point. 2017 was meant to deliver considerable growth on 2013.

What we know so far is it reduced live crowds and missed it's financial target.

Not really making a point, just curious

I suppose if there was a point to be made, or a question to be asked, especially with 2021 just 37 months away, it would be about crowds vs gate receipts and which is more important in a RLWC. But I could see a question like that being a source of a lot of angst on a forum like this so I'd probably stay out of it!

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4 minutes ago, Gorbals said:

Not really making a point, just curious

I suppose if there was a point to be made, or a question to be asked, especially with 2021 just 37 months away, it would be about crowds vs gate receipts and which is more important in a RLWC. But I could see a question like that being a source of a lot of angst on a forum like this so I'd probably stay out of it!

A decent financial report for these things would be a start.

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12 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Oh I don't disagree. Australian based WCs just don't generate the kind of money we need to take the international game forward and we can't keep holding the WC here so we may as well spread the love and hopefully make as much money, if not more, as an Aussie WC does.

The last WC in Australia was based on governments buying games not taking matches to the big league areas, the best games weren't played at the right venues. Townsville needed big games as did Newcastle, Wollongong and Sydney. Melbourne shouldn't host the opener. Brisbane needed more Group matches. Remember also Parra Stadium is going to be a fantastic venue when completed in the next year or two which would attract decent crowds.

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If the international game needs to abandon Australia to hold a successful tournament we really are doomed.

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18 minutes ago, eal said:

If the international game needs to abandon Australia to hold a successful tournament we really are doomed.

You can bet if the Aussies had made a loss on the 17WC they would not be too keen to put their hand up again.

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4 hours ago, rlno1 said:

The last WC in Australia was based on governments buying games not taking matches to the big league areas, the best games weren't played at the right venues. Townsville needed big games as did Newcastle, Wollongong and Sydney. Melbourne shouldn't host the opener. Brisbane needed more Group matches. Remember also Parra Stadium is going to be a fantastic venue when completed in the next year or two which would attract decent crowds.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda didn’t happen. 

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This issue shows the desperate need for a second international property.

The prestige of the World Cup which should be leveraged by developing areas struggles to do so because it is locked in to the heartlands as the only real international property and needing to make money.

Its not just not being able to take a World Cup to france, but we in the UK will see the World Cup focused around the heartands because we need to use it to make money.

The opposite should be the case, a secondary international property would allow us to A) sometimes send it to developing areas who wouldnt necessarily be ready/able to host a WC B ) sometimes it can be held in heartland areas making money.

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16 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Coulda, woulda, shoulda didn’t happen. 

Let's hope they can learn from their mistakes because the reality is the game doesn't have many other options.

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