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“Not good enough for Super League”

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Just now, Cowardly Fan said:

There could be comps or more likely they had just restricted the sections for sale, so 'almost sold out' doesn't mean they have sold the capacity.  

It was part of my job at a football club for years to try and analyse those figures....you get a count from the scanning but we knew it wasn't fully accurate based on some simple testing (there's a number of reasons tech and human error).  That was at one of the biggest football clubs in the world, at Salford I'd expect the tech is worse and likely people pay less attention to the figures due to limited resources.  

I guess this is one of those agree to disagree.  It is entirely possible to get an accurate read out from tickets collected (scanned). If you think the aj bell (a very modern stadium) has subpar ticketing systems, I would disagree.  If a ticket doesn't scan you hit a button and the computer notes it.  Turnstiles don't open. Without the computer letting it.  If it's computer error, then some idiot paid for bad software.

I'm sure AI is at the place that it can count from pictures now.   Maybe you'll say there's a couple thousand in the toilets.

Awful lot of excuses come out when you talk about attendance anywhere but Toronto.

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22 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

The bottom line is, do you think TWP's team looks better on paper than Wigan, Saints or Warrington'? I certainly don't. In which case it's easy to conclude they're within cap. All the rest is just stirring. 

If they sign 5 starting state of origin players in 2019, we can look at it again. 

 

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yeah that's a good way of putting it. When you look at it like that Toronto are well within the cap. On paper even some of the Super League teams in the middle 8s, like Leeds and Salford, look to be spending significantly more too.

It is not the quality on show but how you spend that money, Leigh this season spent 1.68M on wages probably far in excess of all in the Championship, maybe except TWP, and a number of SL clubs, but they did not spend the money wisely, I was not stirring at all Toby just curious to understand if TWP do go on a recruitment drive are they subject to the same rules as everyone else, that was the question I first stated, nothing more.

Obviously if you are a TWP 'backslapper' you take any legitimate question has being an affront to its validity, go on the defensive and use something quite different to substantiate your argument. If you know the answer then please share, not much point making conclusions you are not sure of.

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18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

It is not the quality on show but how you spend that money, Leigh this season spent 1.68M on wages probably far in excess of all in the Championship, maybe except TWP, and a number of SL clubs, but they did not spend the money wisely, I was not stirring at all Toby just curious to understand if TWP do go on a recruitment drive are they subject to the same rules as everyone else, that was the question I first stated, nothing more.

Obviously if you are a TWP 'backslapper' you take any legitimate question has being an affront to its validity, go on the defensive and use something quite different to substantiate your argument. If you know the answer then please share, not much point making conclusions you are not sure of.

"Legitimate question" my 'arris. You make a totally spurious allegation based on stuff you've "heard" and then put the onus on others to disprove it. 

I know that par for the course in much political debate these days but sad we're engaging in it on here too. 

YOU provide one iota of evidence that Toronto is over cap and I'll happily engage with it and accept it if verified. That's how informative debates used to, and still should, work. 

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35 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

I guess this is one of those agree to disagree.  It is entirely possible to get an accurate read out from tickets collected (scanned). If you think the aj bell (a very modern stadium) has subpar ticketing systems, I would disagree.  If a ticket doesn't scan you hit a button and the computer notes it.  Turnstiles don't open. Without the computer letting it.  If it's computer error, then some idiot paid for bad software.

I'm sure AI is at the place that it can count from pictures now.   Maybe you'll say there's a couple thousand in the toilets.

Awful lot of excuses come out when you talk about attendance anywhere but Toronto.

Alright.  I'm just speaking from my experience - if we had errors at Old Trafford 2 years ago, I'd be surprised if the AJ Bell are significantly better than that now.  The software used by most stadiums for this is very old, there's little demand/need to improve it.  

The AI might be there, but it would cost money and provide little benefit.  We used to use the scanned data to target people for Season Ticket renewals, but there is little value in knowing the total figure alone.  Much more important is the revenue, which you can measure to the penny.  

I'm not anti-Toronto, I've argued on their side on attendance.  I just think these discussions on real vs announced attendances are missing the point.  

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I heard differently, being that they were regarded as an being in an 'expansion area' with no infrastructure to call on they were allowed some further discretionary spending power, that may be correct or otherwise

 

49 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If you know the answer then please share, not much point making conclusions you are not sure of.

I suggest you should take heed of your own advice in your own posts rather than making spurious accusations based on what you have heard.

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46 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

Alright.  I'm just speaking from my experience - if we had errors at Old Trafford 2 years ago, I'd be surprised if the AJ Bell are significantly better than that now.  The software used by most stadiums for this is very old, there's little demand/need to improve it.  

 

Depends though on when it was put in - tier 1 RU had to go all-electric several years ago. All their grounds, no matter how ramshackle otherwise, have got electric ticketing sorted (leading to some truly bizarre juxtapositions of grounds made almost entirely from scaffolding with space age turnstiles (hello Bath)). You'd have thought, given the AJ Bell's relative youth and the fact that it's also handling tier 1 RU to the RFU's ground regs, that if anywhere in SL is going to have this sorted it's going to be Salford.

 

Actually, I'll edit this to add that I'm perhaps leaping too far to assume that Sale and Salford share the same software, so who knows....as you were!

Edited by iffleyox

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5 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I hope Toronto do get a larger salary cap than most of the deadwood clogging up SL.

I mean if they don't get central funding why should they have the same salary cap ;)

If they move up to SL will they get a slice of the pie then?   Or will there be 11 bigger pieces?

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1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

"Legitimate question" my 'arris. You make a totally spurious allegation based on stuff you've "heard" and then put the onus on others to disprove it. 

I know that par for the course in much political debate these days but sad we're engaging in it on here too. 

YOU provide one iota of evidence that Toronto is over cap and I'll happily engage with it and accept it if verified. That's how informative debates used to, and still should, work. 

That I can't do and whatsmore never even suggested they did, I asked were they subjected to the same cap as everybody else, you see, unlike you I don't give a flying one if they make SL or not, I think once the novelty wears thin either in Canada or some rich mens whim, I think interest will start waning.

And as for informative debates how many pose a a statement in a questionable manner "do you think TWP's team looks better on paper than Wigan,Saints or Warrington I certainly don't" then conclude it with a very subjective "In which case it's easy to conclude they're within cap" very logical.

 

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Playing in the 8s and NOT gaining promotion may prove to be the best option for Toronto in the long run. They can now see how far off being a competitive SL team they are and how they need to improve.

If,as  look's Likley one team gains automatic promotion next year that should be well within their grasp, it's difficult to see Widnes or anyone else being able to assemble a strong enough squad to challenge them. That leaves Toulouse as favourites to go up this time and honestly I don't think they want to. Now that would make for a interesting Million pound game.

Toronto I feel need to vastly improve their pack and halfbacks, their recruitment from Australia is questionable too, it often seems they sign whoever becomes available without any planning, and I still think they need a better coach than Rowley:  Demetrieu, Kear, Hook perhaps.

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9 posts removed.  I'll review them tonight/tomorrow when I get a chance and see if further action is needed.

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6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have asked before Damien, are TWP subject to the same Salary Cap as all the other teams in the comp, Do you know?

Read the operational rules, it will be in there what teams are entitled to spend.

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Toronto is following all of the rules...they have never been cited for ANY infringement in this regard at any point in the complete history of the Club.

Tickets in Toronto are electronically scanned by a third party agent...the attendance figures are accurate....they have never been cited for ANY infringement in this regard at any point in the complete history of the Club.

Of course Toronto are good enough for SL...we are going to be in it next year Silly.

"Believe In The Pack!"

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On the issue of actual v claimed attendance... why would a club inflate their gates? There’s a real risk that HMRC would note the difference. Years and years ago we thought my football team (Reading FC) underestimated the amount of people attending to reduce their tax bill. This was back in the 80s when if it was a dull match you could pretty much count the attendance. 

I have four STs for Skolars. We don’t go to every match but we’re counted in the attendance because we’ve paid. 

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5 minutes ago, EssexRL said:

On the issue of actual v claimed attendance... why would a club inflate their gates? There’s a real risk that HMRC would note the difference. Years and years ago we thought my football team (Reading FC) underestimated the amount of people attending to reduce their tax bill. This was back in the 80s when if it was a dull match you could pretty much count the attendance. 

I have four STs for Skolars. We don’t go to every match but we’re counted in the attendance because we’ve paid. 

I agree with your post....I don't know why this is such a hard concept for some on here to understand ....their bias against TWP is clearly affecting their logic thought...sad.

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I've no doubt that Toronto can put together a decent SL squad. I think Luetele will go really well next year, 

Hooker, a couple of improvements at prop and second row, maybe an upgrade of McCrone or Wallace and they are s solid mid table side. 

Where they will struggle to kick on is depth. The lack of cheap youngsters you can bring in when injuries bite will really test them in a long hard SL season.

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Should be another topic listing called Attendance Bores. Can't be just me that's sent asleep by this constant need for fan numbers? " I was told it was a 500,000 sell out, but when I got there it was me, three blokes and a dog! " Anyway I'm off to count me programmes.....

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11 hours ago, EssexRL said:

On the issue of actual v claimed attendance... why would a club inflate their gates? There’s a real risk that HMRC would note the difference. Years and years ago we thought my football team (Reading FC) underestimated the amount of people attending to reduce their tax bill. This was back in the 80s when if it was a dull match you could pretty much count the attendance. 

I have four STs for Skolars. We don’t go to every match but we’re counted in the attendance because we’ve paid. 

The tax bill is based on profit,  not on ticket sales, if HMRC are basing investigations suspect attendance figures I would be surprised by such incompetence. The clubs have to provided audited accounts that cover all income streams  those accounts usually do not contain attendance figures. The only significant reason  to give accurate figures on attendance is health and safety. 

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11 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I heard differently, being that they were regarded as an being in an 'expansion area' with no infrastructure to call on they were allowed some further discretionary spending power, that may be correct or otherwise, I seem to remember just as Catalan once benefitted from further benefits, corrections welcome, i think they were allowed more 'overseas' players.

Perhaps someone else with better knowledge may be able to confirm TWP's SC situation.

And so they should. Anyone who has had to employ people to work in inner city London will fully understand we are dealing with completely different beasts here. You have to pay a premium to sell this sort of gig to an elite player. In the AFL the game actually bends over backwards to weight towards expansion clubs with all sorts of concessions. Amazing how that code has actually grown beyond recognition.

Meanwhile in RL....

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4 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I've no doubt that Toronto can put together a decent SL squad. I think Luetele will go really well next year, 

Hooker, a couple of improvements at prop and second row, maybe an upgrade of McCrone or Wallace and they are s solid mid table side. 

Where they will struggle to kick on is depth. The lack of cheap youngsters you can bring in when injuries bite will really test them in a long hard SL season.

Toronto's best player is the 9...(Ackers)...SL player all day long..but they are a very long trip  off a "solid mid table team"...and with the same pool of players continually floating round RL they are  years from even being a Salford...

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and i hope when they get promoted they don't put them up against the likes of wigan in their first game, give them an home game against one of the riff raff get them off to a good start.😉

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3 hours ago, doc said:

Should be another topic listing called Attendance Bores. Can't be just me that's sent asleep by this constant need for fan numbers? " I was told it was a 500,000 sell out, but when I got there it was me, three blokes and a dog! " Anyway I'm off to count me programmes.....

No need to count just post a picture of them on here and man of Kent will tell you how many you have in seconds. 

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57 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

Toronto's best player is the 9...(Ackers)...SL player all day long..but they are a very long trip  off a "solid mid table team"...and with the same pool of players continually floating round RL they are  years from even being a Salford...

They have a good backline and would be spending more than most clubs. Leutele will probably be the best centre in SL if they are promoted, Stanley is more than capable.

Salford arent that far from a mid-table SL side.

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48 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

No need to count just post a picture of them on here and man of Kent will tell you how many you have in seconds. 

Okay I'll give it a try...Man of Kent how many?

1 PERSON.jpg

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Realistically, Toronto need 10 new good players. Widnes could provide perhaps 3. Australia has a higher salary cap so that would provide an obstacle to buying top notch Aussies.

Toronto have got where they on the back of signing old heads. Those blokes en bloc won't cut it in Superleague so bite the bullet and scour the Universities for American Football jocks that have failed to make the NFL in this year's Draft.

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