Sign in to follow this  
Lowdesert

Elston - stop searching for the silver bullet.

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, cookey said:

The image/perception of The Jungle to neutrals/sponsors/tv viewers is disasterous.Fine for those happy to project a 1960's working class game,useless for anybody wanting to take the game forward.Shame,because Castleford is a Club we need.Castleford in a new stadium,with an 8,000 crowd would be beneficial for the game,at present,their ground is an embarrassment.Unfortunately,same applies to Wakefield and Bradford before anyone mentions they should be back in SL.The problem ofcourse,is that there aren't a queue of clubs with modern facilities and good spectator base waiting to get into SL.

So your saying the working class live in squalor and that's why they are happy watching rugby league at grounds like the jungle, I say once inside the ground and the atmosphere hits them, they will forget about a the ground and if you add to the atmosphere the added pleasure of being able to stand and don't get disturbed by late comers going to their seats and then again at half-time.

 

By the way I'm a neutral, for my sins I support Hull FC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

I think he alludes to that with his mention of clubs and community development.

Bit of a sweeping statement, but still relative to what’s going on, on that front.  That said, kids could do with more headliners to idol, so increasing profile at either end of the spectrum ain’t all bad.

Clubs could do a lot more within their communities and I'm sure if they did the players would become heroes to the kids.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

But the reality is new stadia means less income. 

Most clubs don't own the assets and this leads to clubs losing money.

Wigan's loss of central park means they now need to plug the gaps with a bigger share of the TV deal.

 

But they have been saved the immense cost of maintaining a decrepid ######, the legal costs of settling legal action from fans with splinters from the wooden seats. By moving, they've avoided the ignominy of capacity reductions, the withdrawl of  fire safety certificates etc. Sure, they've lost those fans who prefer outside toilets, coal fires, tin baths and gas lights, but its a price worth paying, in my views. But, yes, having a decent stadium is only one of many suceess  factors 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The loss of their own ground has financially crippled Wigan. It's tragic to see the game's second largest club unable to hold its head above water unsupported.

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Crowd sizers haven't really grown when clubs have moved into new grounds and the switch to summer also hasn't seen a massive increase and that's with all he razzle dazzle of summer rugby.

Wigan averaged 11,307 in 1995/96 and 11,708 in 2018

Leeds averaged 10,674 in 1995/96 and 12,807 in 2018

Saints average 7,459 in 1995/96 and 11,478 in 2018

All have been very successful in the super league period, then we look at the other end

Salford average 3,383 in 1994/95 and 2,748 in 2018

Hull KR average 8,906 in 1981/82 couldn’t find 1995/96 and 7,964 in 2018

Widnes average 5.982 in 1981/82 couldn’t find 1995/96 and 4,897 in 2018

None of the three mentioned  (HKR, Salford & Widnes) where in the championship (Top Division) and none played in new grounds but either now play in new or refurbished grounds.

Another example,  If you take Hull FC, they averaged 4,285 when finishing 15th in the 1994/95 season and 12,174 in 2018 finishing 8th but in the 1981/82 season they averaged 13,402, So I'd relate crowds sizes more to where you are in the league than a shiny new ground.

Such a selective use of numbers!

The average attendance figures for the years you highlight were;

81/82 - 5268

95/96 - 5515

2018 - 8547

Increases of 62% and 55% respectively. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, M j M said:

The loss of their own ground has financially crippled Wigan. It's tragic to see the game's second largest club unable to hold its head above water unsupported.

And they wouldn’t be here today if they hadn’t been able to clear their debts with the sale of Central Park. Along with virtually every other club who sold off the family silver in the 90s. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, M j M said:

The loss of their own ground has financially crippled Wigan. It's tragic to see the game's second largest club unable to hold its head above water unsupported.

No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnM said:

But they have been saved the immense cost of maintaining a decrepid ######, the legal costs of settling legal action from fans with splinters from the wooden seats. By moving, they've avoided the ignominy of capacity reductions, the withdrawl of  fire safety certificates etc. Sure, they've lost those fans who prefer outside toilets, coal fires, tin baths and gas lights, but its a price worth paying, in my views. But, yes, having a decent stadium is only one of many suceess  factors 

Good point.  Splinters aside, uneven surfaces, caused by years of wear and concrete spalling, unfortunately have to be considered these days.  So does fire risk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Clubs could do a lot more within their communities and I'm sure if they did the players would become heroes to the kids.

Lot of work to be done between now and then.  I think that’s what Elston us hinting at.  What’s going on now, isn’t enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

And they wouldn’t be here today if they hadn’t been able to clear their debts with the sale of Central Park. Along with virtually every other club who sold off the family silver in the 90s. 

Brought about Uncles Mo's taking the club full time.

Then claiming this as a successful model for the game to go forward with??

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well.....remind me about yesterday's results and media coverage.

Edited by JohnM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

 

“We’re talking to commercial partners, we’re talking to Sky, we’ve consulted internally with players and coaches. We’ll be announcing a number of rule changes to speed the game up”

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/bradford-bulls/time-for-super-league-to-listen-to-those-outside-the-tent-says-robert-elstone-1-9395262

Oh dear. The speed of the game is not the problem and neither are the rules in place. I would though ask that the Match Officials are more Consistant with decisions made across the season.

One of the problems is Clubs dont have a Reserve Grade. You cant expect a player to perform well if he has not played for a few weeks. Normally a player would get a runout in reserve grade to help him. Thats what Wigan did with Manfredi for example. Also you cant expect players to jump up from Academy to First Grade. Reserve Grade helps these players and the Quality of a team.

Also teams playing in each 4 or 5 times a season is not good. The Special Occassion of a Derby has been lost. The Season is often too long with many meaningless games often. Sometimes less is more. A simple Home and Away Programme, with no Loop Fixtures, is probably what most fans want.

Maybe SL Clubs should look at York, Toronto, Halifax (LS28 Group) etc on how they have been successful. Not every idea is a good one but a number of ideas have worked and should be looked at. You get the feeling some SL Clubs are content to get the SL Money and thats it. ALL Clubs in and outside of SL need to look at themselves and how they can grow the Club/Product in and around their area.

I would hope any Rule Changes are applied across the whole game and not just SL. Its bad enough that we have different Rules between Australasia, Europe and Internationals!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

Thats a good way to get to the top.

 

Never thought you were so bitter Tex.  He’s hardly been in post long, dealing with a ‘civil war’ and must have wondered if he’d done the right thing coming to SL.  I doubt we’d have had Wood being so forthright, however sweeping Elstone statements have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Never thought you were so bitter Tex.  He’s hardly been in post long, dealing with a ‘civil war’ and must have wondered if he’d done the right thing coming to SL.  I doubt we’d have had Wood being so forthright, however sweeping Elstone statements have been.

I would say disillusioned, rather than bitter.

Dont see anyone in the sport who is in it for the right reasons at this moment in time or has the right intentions.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mushy said:

The brand of rugby league is unjustifiably low, with negative connotations where any even exist. And the clubs and the governing bodies have completely failed to grow revenue at all. The two are linked, but any strategy has to work out how to make a step change in both.

Might a modest investment in opening up northern American and possibly French opportunities transform both image and income in the medium to long term future? Shuffling league structures, the same clubs playing each other over and over again and tinkering with rules won’t make any significant impact.

And the issue of grounds being sub standard should largely just be an issue insofar as it affects club revenue - which it does for many clubs, although do Salford make more money now as a tenant than they did in the Willows? - and brand, which night actually be enhanced with full atmospheric historic grounds.

There are a lot of challenges but there are also a lot of opportunities out there too with sporting globalisation and a change in how people watch sport. We need strong leadership rather than design by committee and I hope Elstone is the man to deliver this. His last days at Everton and his first days in SL haven’t inspired a lot of confidence, but it’s still early and there may yet be a grand plan being developed. 

If there is evidence that attendances for clubs in new grounds are increasing or holding up better than clubs in old grounds, then fine. If not, it is hot air.

I agree with speeding up the game, too much lying on, too much time wasting at drop outs, introduce the shock clock like the NRL, but it's five drives and a kick we need to eliminate somehow.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

If there is evidence that attendances for clubs in new grounds are increasing or holding up better than clubs in old grounds, then fine. If not, it is hot air.

I agree with speeding up the game, too much lying on, too much time wasting at drop outs, introduce the shock clock like the NRL, but it's five drives and a kick we need to eliminate somehow.

On the first point, the only valid comparison is what happens at clubs who have moved from old stadiums to new ones, not between different clubs. It's not just attendances, either, that are the issue.  If old grounds are so good, why is Cas going for a new one? Why did Warrington, Wigan, Saints, Giants, Hull Fc, Doncaster, Salford and more make the moves they did? Why is York doing what it is doing? 

Edited by JohnM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

If there is evidence that attendances for clubs in new grounds are increasing or holding up better than clubs in old grounds, then fine. If not, it is hot air.

I agree with speeding up the game, too much lying on, too much time wasting at drop outs, introduce the shock clock like the NRL, but it's five drives and a kick we need to eliminate somehow.

Cut down subs has to be the way to go to reduce the use of the prop forward.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some very selective use of new grounds, saints were losing 750k a year in Knowsley Road and are now making money, Warrington have blown their income streams out of the water at what level they were at, so it's probably the terms you have for the new grounds that will be if you lose revenue streams or boost them. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Some very selective use of new grounds, saints were losing 750k a year in Knowsley Road and are now making money, Warrington have blown their income streams out of the water at what level they were at, so it's probably the terms you have for the new grounds that will be if you lose revenue streams or boost them. 

I'm pretty sure Warrington and Hull average more now than they could physically fit in their old grounds. And the difference in corporate sales must be astronomical.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The vast majority of SL clubs play out of great facilities. Fixing the last couple ain't gonna make a big difference to the attractiveness of SL.

I'm surprised it keeps being raised as an issue. It's an issue for the couple of affected clubs.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

He does keep mentioning what I believe is the stadia of some clubs, are we soon expected to hear some timescales of "improve or else" given to a couple of certain clubs who reside in the Rhubarb Triangle?

We are down to only 10 clubs with adequate private backing and that includes Ian Fulton and Michael Carter. Do you really believe the game can start giving ultimatums to these Gentlemen? Wellsy is right that new grounds at Hull and Warrington were massive successes, but you are wrong to think that Elstone would dare threaten either of Carter or Fulton who both are doing all they can to make the grounds happen. What do you want them to do Harry? Sell their own businesses and add their own personal money to the sum and personally buy us new grounds?? Where would RL be in West Yorkshire if two more clubs lost SL status and their rich owners walked like Beaumont did????.

20 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

A TV deal in NA would be massive.....

How many many times do you dreamers have to be told. As Mr. Perez says that deal can only be negotiated if there are 6 North American clubs in Superleague. As they don't produce any players then six clubs here have to be relegated to make way and even then as has been said, many many times the Americans would have no interest In Castleford or Huddersfield. 

18 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

The easiest thing to improve Odsal would be to ignore the existing bowl and build an entirely new stadium within the crater.

The easiest thing would be to stop talking as though £Millions are available. The easiest thing has been done as per Trailfinders. Stop bleating about finding mega £Millions that just aren't there for stadia and just get on with playing the game the most entertaining way we can on the pitch because that is what Elstone is trying to say amidst the usual meaningless grand statements they all come out with. Read these articles by Solly, Elstone. Argylle etc and they are all full of hot air and grand statements that mean nothing.

Elstone's bottom line is that if we want to keep or enhance a TV deal that underpins professional RL in this country or shall I say "keeps the game alive" then the coaches and players must put entertainment first. 

As bad as Odsal was and is Bulls still put 20K crowds in there, so put Bulls back in SL for a boost to fanbases and a boost to TV with Leeds.v.Bradford back on - and we miss that badly.

13 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Elston does say a lot without ever really getting to the point. 

When you can't really do much and are stuck due to the conditions that exist as regards the small RL game here or the virtually non existent game in North America (both locations overshadowed heavily by bigger, richer, more popular and in direct in competition with Rugby League pro sports) these people have no alternative but to woffle on saying all sort of meaningless rubbish. Last week it was Argyle saying nothing much at all across a whole page, and now Elstone.

BUT in Elstone's grand woffle the message is still there (albeit badly clouded by guff)  that the clubs must put entertaining the TV audiences beyond all else. No TV deal no game. That is what this thread should consider......

Edited by The Parksider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel that a lot of the criticism of Elstone (or Rimmer, or Woods or Bennett or O'Loughlin etc) is merely because he has the top job. Sometimes, I detect  a societal attitude that anyone who gets the top job in any field  hasn't got it on merit but has got it because of who they know, or some othe reason unconnected with ability.

Edited by JohnM
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I feel that a lot of the criticism of Elstone (or Rimmer, or Woods or Bennett or O'Loughlin etc) is merely because he has the top job. Sometimes, I detect  a societal attitude that anyone who gets the top job in any field  hasn't got it on merit but has got it because of who they know, or some othe reason unconnected with ability.

To be fair, I think the coverage of Elstone has been pretty positive (for the type of role he is in) - however there comes a time when we need to start seeing improvement. If anything I think we can be criticised for impatience, but his organisation delivered one of the lowest SL Grand Finals for many a year, and he does have a tendency to talk about the actual on-field product and stadia which I personally view as missing the point slightly.

But, it is early days, and I suspect he is still building his team, strategy and needs to be given a bit of time to put plans in place.

But I have no issue with fans and stakeholders being demanding of him, as long as the criticism is reasonable. At least he aint fat, so the idiots don't have that personal insult to get hung up on. No more buffet jokes!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


League Express Yearbook 2018/19 - Order Now


Rugby League World - Nov 2018

Rugby League World - Nov 2018



League Express - Online Now

League Express - Every Monday