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Man of Kent

1895 Cup / Wembley Deal Extended to 2027 (Merged Threads)

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According to League Express, the RFL has mooted a 16-team ‘1895 Cup’ (12 Championship excluding Toronto & Toulouse + 4 League 1 clubs).  Final at Wembley.

More detail in LE...

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Just go the whole way and have

CHALLENGE CUP - for SL teams

CHALLENGE SHIELD - for champ teams

CHALLENGE BOWL - for league one & amateurs

And a finals day at Wembley...

 

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8 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

I'm not sure about the merits of the competition itself, but I'd have thought a Wembley final would be a bit optimistic. I could be wrong though.

Presumably as a double header with the Challenge Cup Final.

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8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

According to League Express, the RFL has mooted a 16-team ‘1895 Cup’ (12 Championship excluding Toronto & Toulouse + 4 League 1 clubs).  Final at Wembley.

More detail in LE...

Not a bad idea. I'd like to see them stick with it even if the crowds aren't massive.

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8 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

Just go the whole way and have

CHALLENGE CUP - for SL teams

CHALLENGE SHIELD - for champ teams

CHALLENGE BOWL - for league one & amateurs

And a finals day at Wembley...

 

Im not convinced. Teams outside of SL contribute a lot to the Challenge Cup imho.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Im not convinced. Teams outside of SL contribute a lot to the Challenge Cup imho.

Exactly. What does that mean for European invitational sides like Red Star who are supposed to be playing next year? 

I don't see a problem with having a league cup or league trophy style comp, but I'd prefer time to be set aside for internationals.

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Why only some League One Clubs? What about the other five who aren’t invited? 

Wembley holding the Final as well is incredibly optimistic and stinks of this being The RFL’s big plan to attempt to get more people to the Challenge Cup Final. 

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13 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Wembley holding the Final as well is incredibly optimistic and stinks of this being The RFL’s big plan to attempt to get more people to the Challenge Cup Final. 

Whats wrong with that? They need to attract more fans - yes, ideally they would be supported of the CC finalists, but two well-supported Championship clubs could provide a significant boost in attendance 

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3 minutes ago, philipw said:

Whats wrong with that? They need to attract more fans - yes, ideally they would be supported of the CC finalists, but two well-supported Championship clubs could provide a significant boost in attendance 

If that’s the sum of their master plan to increase the attendance, frankly, it’s embarrassing. If that’s the best they can do, wow. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

If that’s the sum of their master plan to increase the attendance, frankly, it’s embarrassing. If that’s the best they can do, wow. 

 

What’s your alternative plan?

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I like the idea, I've wondered in the past why they haven't done this and there is no reason why it should be limited to only 4 league 1 clubs, just have a couple of preliminary rounds to get the numbers down to 4 before the Championship clubs join the competition. A few potential benefits could be

Gives clubs and supporters who are likely to make the Challenge Cup Final a big day out.

A potential boost to Challenge Cup Final crowd, ok this may just be a few thousand but so what

Hopefully persuade the BBC to televise it ahead of the Cup Final giving the Championship some much needed exposure.

Gives those in League 1 who are struggling to fill the season at least and extra game.

Can be used as an expansion tool for those, either abroad or at home, hoping to join League 1 as a testing ground to see where they are.

Just to be clear I'd like to see this as an extra competition in addition to the Challenge cup, not a separate competition for those not in SL

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6 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

I like the idea, I've wondered in the past why they haven't done this and there is no reason why it should be limited to only 4 league 1 clubs, just have a couple of preliminary rounds to get the numbers down to 4 before the Championship clubs join the competition. A few potential benefits could be

Gives clubs and supporters who are likely to make the Challenge Cup Final a big day out.

A potential boost to Challenge Cup Final crowd, ok this may just be a few thousand but so what

Hopefully persuade the BBC to televise it ahead of the Cup Final giving the Championship some much needed exposure.

Gives those in League 1 who are struggling to fill the season at least and extra game.

Can be used as an expansion tool for those, either abroad or at home, hoping to join League 1 as a testing ground to see where they are.

Just to be clear I'd like to see this as an extra competition in addition to the Challenge cup, not a separate competition for those not in SL

So you would include SL teams too in it?  

Not sure about that myself as they would dominate it.

I think this is a better competition for non SL clubs if the final is indeed being played at Wembley as that is some carrot to dangle for players, clubs and fans of Champioship and League 1 clubs.

Hopefully they get a nice looking trophy to play for.

Edited by Gerrumonside ref

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1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

So you would include SL teams too in it?  

Not sure about that myself as they would dominate it.

I think this is a better competition for non SL clubs if the final is indeed being played at Wembley as that is some carrot to dangle for players, clubs and fans of Champioship and League 1 clubs.

No

What I meant was it would be a new competition for those not in SL in addition to the challenge cup rather than instead of, so the new competition would include Championship and League 1 clubs and the Challenge Cup would remain as it is.

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Just now, Gerrumonside ref said:

What’s your alternative plan?

Not holding a second-tier competition in a stadium that holds 80,000+ and where most fans aren’t really interested in a competition without history. 

It’s a joke. The game is gone. We’ve got all this rubbish from Elstone about a new dawn and really nothing has changed in Super League, we’ve got the same teams, the same amount of teams, the same daft double header at Easter and we’re told that this new dawn is down to loop fixtures, relegation, and a five team play-off, three ideas that have been implemented and arguably, failed (two out of three anyway) in the past. 

We’ve had double header Finals. The old Premiership Finals had double headers, how successful was that? Do people yearn for the days they could watch Swinton v Workington before a Premiership Final? Are people chomping at the bit to watch Widnes v Bradford in front of a less than a Quarter full Wembley? Is that what’s going to rejuvenate the Final, the Cup competition and the games fans? 

Or is it the game, again, holding no interest in fans? That’s now Wembley for Championship fans on top of season tickets, Toulouse, Toronto, UK based away games, Summer Bash, Challenge Cup games, the 1895 Cup games and an end of season play-off system. People only have so much disposable income and they have to make sacrifices when it comes to what Rugby League they watch and adding in another event to the calendar just seems ill-judged. 

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1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Not holding a second-tier competition in a stadium that holds 80,000+ and where most fans aren’t really interested in a competition without history. 

It’s a joke. The game is gone. We’ve got all this rubbish from Elstone about a new dawn and really nothing has changed in Super League, we’ve got the same teams, the same amount of teams, the same daft double header at Easter and we’re told that this new dawn is down to loop fixtures, relegation, and a five team play-off, three ideas that have been implemented and arguably, failed (two out of three anyway) in the past. 

We’ve had double header Finals. The old Premiership Finals had double headers, how successful was that? Do people yearn for the days they could watch Swinton v Workington before a Premiership Final? Are people chomping at the bit to watch Widnes v Bradford in front of a less than a Quarter full Wembley? Is that what’s going to rejuvenate the Final, the Cup competition and the games fans? 

Or is it the game, again, holding no interest in fans? That’s now Wembley for Championship fans on top of season tickets, Toulouse, Toronto, UK based away games, Summer Bash, Challenge Cup games, the 1895 Cup games and an end of season play-off system. People only have so much disposable income and they have to make sacrifices when it comes to what Rugby League they watch and adding in another event to the calendar just seems ill-judged. 

What’s your alternative plan though?

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2 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

No

What I meant was it would be a new competition for those not in SL in addition to the challenge cup rather than instead of, so the new competition would include Championship and League 1 clubs and the Challenge Cup would remain as it is.

Yep, agreed.

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2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

What’s your alternative plan though?

That is the important question. It's easy to say what shouldn't happen and why not. That's not a criticism aimed at anyone in particular, because it's extremely important to assess things realistically and not just try anything because you're desperate for ideas.

The real challenge, however, is to then come up with some suggestions that are good and actually will work.

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The cup final used to attract fans from across the game and across all clubs in much greater numbers than it does now. Now I believe that's partly because of perception of the way the SL clubs have taken everything for themselves and told the rest of the game to get lost since 1995. But maybe it also reflects the rival attraction of Old Trafford, the focus on the Grand Final as the season's biggest game and a fall in prestige in domestic cup competitions across a variety of sports.

Anything which will encourage a wider spread of people and a wider spread of clubs to have interest in the game's biggest day can only be good. It was never clear to me why the Challenge Cup Plate competition was viewed as a failure but this proposed competition may be effective at getting a greater spread of people engaged again at Wembley and helping to improve attendances. Anything we can do to move back to the more globally supported events like the cup final used to be and the Premiership finals day used to be rather than the more partisan Super League club vs Super League club event the cup final has become should be welcomed.

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7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

What’s your alternative plan though?

Not holding this at Wembley. 

If a cup competition called the 1895 Cup is to happen (I’d include All Champ/L1 sides but that’s another debate) then hold it somewhere more appropriate (Leeds, for example) for a start.

Or, if you want to be different and a bit left field, have the 1895 Cup as a 9’s tournament. It seems that’s the flavour of the month now and the Australians are to hold a World Nines in the next year. Spread it over two days like the Auckland 9’s if needs be. Market it. £18.95 the most expensive ticket for the two days. 

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3 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Not holding this at Wembley. 

If a cup competition called the 1895 Cup is to happen (I’d include All Champ/L1 sides but that’s another debate) then hold it somewhere more appropriate (Leeds, for example) for a start.

Or, if you want to be different and a bit left field, have the 1895 Cup as a 9’s tournament. It seems that’s the flavour of the month now and the Australians are to hold a World Nines in the next year. Spread it over two days like the Auckland 9’s if needs be. Market it. £18.95 the most expensive ticket for the two days. 

Would have no interest in either of those ideas tbh.

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Just now, Gerrumonside ref said:

Would have no interest in either of those ideas tbh.

Let’s do the same thing over and over and expect different results then. Insanity, I think that’s known as. 

We’ve had double header Finals before, it’s not missed, but we’ll go back to it here in a made-up tournament that has teams cherry picked  to be in it. Sounds riveting. 

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Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Let’s do the same thing over and over and expect different results then. Insanity, I think that’s known as. 

We’ve had double header Finals before, it’s not missed, but we’ll go back to it here in a made-up tournament that has teams cherry picked  to be in it. Sounds riveting. 

No-one is forcing you to watch or attend.

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