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John Drake

The Brexit Thread (incl Brexit Party & EU elections)

Brexit: What should happen now?  

164 members have voted

  1. 1. Brexit: What should happen now?

    • Accept Theresa May's Brexit deal and just get it over and done with
      18
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and leave with 'No Deal' regardless of the consequences
      48
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and force a General Election
      12
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and have a second referendum with 'Remain' as an option
      56
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and have a second referendum without 'Remain' as an option
      7
    • Something completely different which I'll explain in detail below
      0
    • I have absolutely no idea and have now lost the will to live, just make this stop, for pity's sake
      23


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5 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

Can you point me to the relevant article that suggests that this is British Empire 2.0

It's 2019, not 1919.  The British Empire is ancient history and utterly irrelevant to this idea.  It's like some of the more looney Brexiteers claiming that The EU is essentially The Fourth Reich.

If it has nothing to do with the British Empire then it's the weirdest collection of four countries you could ever put together.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

They speak French in Quebec. The dirty beggars.

Same laws? Some laws the same?

Australia has some federal state system. Canada has territories. New Zealand has no upper house.

Aye. Although not everyone in the dominions seems happy with that.

Closer than any other selected group of countries in the world?

Always? I mean, I have no idea. Do these canucks not have minds of their own?

Not really. Canada is big and icy, Australia remote and hot. New Zealand is miles away and Maori.

I'm not basing international diplomacy on the fact that we can beat Canada at cricket.

I'd suggest family ties are significantly looser now than at any point in modern history. What with Australia ending the White Australia Policy, Canada being open to people from around the world, and New Zealand not being Little Britain.

Does identical GDP smooth the wheels or is it a pointless addition to the list?

I heard someone describe this (or something very similar) as like losing a well paying job and imposing yourself on your long-lost cousin while they really want to get on with doing stuff with their neighbours rather than with the fusty old uncle who keeps embarrassing himself.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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I can understand what Autralia & NZ get out of it (minerals beef & lamb exports) plus Canada (softwoods and wheat) but what huge untapped export market is there for the UK in those 3 countries and how will UK agriculture be protected from the increased competition ?

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5 minutes ago, ckn said:

I heard someone describe this (or something very similar) as like losing a well paying job and imposing yourself on your long-lost cousin while they really want to get on with doing stuff with their neighbours rather than with the fusty old uncle who keeps embarrassing himself.

Good analogy...just remember whose house you are now in and who will be making the rules.  Of course old relatives are welcome but must follow the current rules....we will put you in the old bedroom up in the attic.  You will be put in charge of vacuuming, toilet cleaning, and anything else we can think of at the time.   You are going to have to earn your keep.

We will put you on a slight weekly allowance.

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1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

 

They speak French in Quebec. The dirty beggars. - They speak Welsh in Wales, which is just as relevant

Same laws? Some laws the same? - The same BASIS of Law i.e. Common Law

Australia has some federal state system. Canada has territories. New Zealand has no upper house. - Scotland, Wales and NI have devolved Government.  However, all are modelled on the Westminster system.

Aye. Although not everyone in the dominions seems happy with that. - Yet none of them have yet ditched Lizzie

Closer than any other selected group of countries in the world? - With the exception of The USA, yes.

Always? I mean, I have no idea. Do these canucks not have minds of their own? - A bit of research into goings on at The UN would help you here

Not really. Canada is big and icy, Australia remote and hot. New Zealand is miles away and Maori. - How does this prevent our interests being closely aligned?

I'm not basing international diplomacy on the fact that we can beat Canada at cricket. - That is not guaranteed.😀

I'd suggest family ties are significantly looser now than at any point in modern history. What with Australia ending the White Australia Policy, Canada being open to people from around the world, and New Zealand not being Little Britain. -     And yet the top three overseas destinations for Brits sending Christmas Presents are Canada, Australia and NZ.  This indicates there may well be significant family ties.

Does identical GDP smooth the wheels or is it a pointless addition to the list? - It means than none of the 4 countries are likely to be swamped with migrants from the other 3.  The reason free movement hasn't worked in The EU is that the economies of the outer countries are at nowhere near the level of the inner core. This has led to brain drains in countries such as Poland, Hungary, Lithuania etc.

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11 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

They speak French in Quebec. The dirty beggars. - They speak Welsh in Wales, which is just as relevant

Same laws? Some laws the same? - The same BASIS of Law i.e. Common Law

Australia has some federal state system. Canada has territories. New Zealand has no upper house. - Scotland, Wales and NI have devolved Government.  However, all are modelled on the Westminster system.

Aye. Although not everyone in the dominions seems happy with that. - Yet none of them have yet ditched Lizzie

Closer than any other selected group of countries in the world? - With the exception of The USA, yes.

Always? I mean, I have no idea. Do these canucks not have minds of their own? - A bit of research into goings on at The UN would help you here

Not really. Canada is big and icy, Australia remote and hot. New Zealand is miles away and Maori. - How does this prevent our interests being closely aligned?

I'm not basing international diplomacy on the fact that we can beat Canada at cricket. - That is not guaranteed.😀

I'd suggest family ties are significantly looser now than at any point in modern history. What with Australia ending the White Australia Policy, Canada being open to people from around the world, and New Zealand not being Little Britain. -     And yet the top three overseas destinations for Brits sending Christmas Presents are Canada, Australia and NZ.  This indicates there may well be significant family ties.

Does identical GDP smooth the wheels or is it a pointless addition to the list? - It means than none of the 4 countries are likely to be swamped with migrants from the other 3.  The reason free movement hasn't worked in The EU is that the economies of the outer countries are at nowhere near the level of the inner core. This has led to brain drains in countries such as Poland, Hungary, Lithuania etc.

And to repeat my question - I can see what is in it for them BUT....what huge untapped export market is there for the UK in those 3 countries and how will UK agriculture be protected from the increased competition ?

 

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Also didnt Canada sign a trade deal with the US last year that gave pretty much unfettered access to the canadian market for US agricultural products - that means we cant have a full free trade deal with canada and the EU at the same time for the same reasons we we cant have one with the US and Eu at the same time - disparate phyto-sanitary regulations

 

I definitely remember reading criticism of the deal from the Canadian dairy industry and i think i remember something about automotive manufacture being tied in with it which might remove it as an alternative market for cars we can no longer sell to the EU

Edited by SSoutherner

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3 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

Also didnt Canada sign a trade deal with the US last year that gave pretty much unfettered access to the canadian market for US agricultural products - that means we cant have a full free trade deal with canada and the EU at the same time for the same reasons we we cant have one with the US and Eu at the same time - disparate phyto-sanitary regulations

 

I definitely remember reading criticism of the deal from the Canadian dairy industry and i think i remember something about automotive manufacture being tied in with it which might remove it as an alternative market for cars we can no longer sell to the EU

The Canada deal has not been ratified by any of the three countries involved.

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5 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

The Canada deal has not been ratified by any of the three countries involved.

So I guess a quick deal between us, aus, canada and NZ can't be knocked out inside a month then ?

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17 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

And to repeat my question - I can see what is in it for them BUT....what huge untapped export market is there for the UK in those 3 countries and how will UK agriculture be protected from the increased competition ?

 

Do you know that physical goods represent a tiny fraction of our exports? (One of the reasons why the CU argument is a bit of a red herring).

Services are what we are good at.

How is UK agriculture protected now?  The CAP does not work for them, it exists to keep French farmers happy.

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10 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

How is UK agriculture protected now?

Tarifs on imports on things such as lamb, wheat, chicken, etc.  Common standards which prevent undercutting by cheap substandard products.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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42 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

They speak French in Quebec. The dirty beggars. - They speak Welsh in Wales, which is just as relevant

Same laws? Some laws the same? - The same BASIS of Law i.e. Common Law

Australia has some federal state system. Canada has territories. New Zealand has no upper house. - Scotland, Wales and NI have devolved Government.  However, all are modelled on the Westminster system.

Aye. Although not everyone in the dominions seems happy with that. - Yet none of them have yet ditched Lizzie

Closer than any other selected group of countries in the world? - With the exception of The USA, yes.

Always? I mean, I have no idea. Do these canucks not have minds of their own? - A bit of research into goings on at The UN would help you here

Not really. Canada is big and icy, Australia remote and hot. New Zealand is miles away and Maori. - How does this prevent our interests being closely aligned?

I'm not basing international diplomacy on the fact that we can beat Canada at cricket. - That is not guaranteed.😀

I'd suggest family ties are significantly looser now than at any point in modern history. What with Australia ending the White Australia Policy, Canada being open to people from around the world, and New Zealand not being Little Britain. -     And yet the top three overseas destinations for Brits sending Christmas Presents are Canada, Australia and NZ.  This indicates there may well be significant family ties.

Does identical GDP smooth the wheels or is it a pointless addition to the list? - It means than none of the 4 countries are likely to be swamped with migrants from the other 3.  The reason free movement hasn't worked in The EU is that the economies of the outer countries are at nowhere near the level of the inner core. This has led to brain drains in countries such as Poland, Hungary, Lithuania etc.

Yes. They do speak Welsh in Wales. Because Canada and the UK are very different.

So they don't have the same laws.

So they don't have the same parliamentary system.

They do have the same Head of State. Not sure how this helps given the role is entirely ceremonial and she'd be out if she ever tried to do anything.

How is this measured?

I'll let you tell me. We always vote the same way?

It makes it highly unlikely that four countries separated by oceans are really the best primary partners for each other when there are massive blocs on their doorsteps.

Did you know the first cricket international was Canada v the USA?

That indicates we have a lot of old people who don't know the value of online purchases to be honest. Which fits my definition of it being a thing that will cease in the next generation or so.

I believe this is a load of nonsense that's been thoroughly disproved. Also, there's a reason everyone jokes about aussie barmen in London etc. So GDP or not, freedom of movement would lead to a lot of migration. Which wouldn't be a problem because freedom of movement is awesome.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

There's a certain sameyness of opinion that most of the CANZUK crowd have. And apologies if this doesn't apply to you.

But it can be summed up that they agree with this sentence: On balance, the British Empire was not that bad.

Which, for most of the people in the world, is a shocking, ghastly, horrible, ill-advised position. That they all seem to share.

Ah the wonderful British Empire.  Why only last week the Indians were commemorating one of its achievements.

http://www.theloombafoundation.org/blogs/jallianwala-bagh-amritsar-massacre-apology?gclid=Cj0KCQjw2IrmBRCJARIsAJZDdxD3QzPRJWi6QoVh-gpnPaTH1bioV_iJA5D6Mcqa72Nj4PztGbN5i-gaAsmNEALw_wcB


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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The story of one "the BBC hates Brexit" story

 


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Remember how the EU was going to collapse because Brexit. Remember when the deluded quit club tried to make 'frexit' a word, when Grexit was imminent and spiked genuinely tried to create Irexit?

So, anyway, that went well ...

 

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

Do you know that physical goods represent a tiny fraction of our exports? (One of the reasons why the CU argument is a bit of a red herring).

Services are what we are good at.

How is UK agriculture protected now?  The CAP does not work for them, it exists to keep French farmers happy.

rubbish - you are speaking to someone who grew up on a small (85acre arable farm) who is married to the daughter of a devon hill farmer (sheep and some beef calves) - CAP is poor but compared with trying to compete tariff free vs NZ sheep farmers or Aus Beef or even Canadian Milling Wheat it has been pretty protectionist and as for welsh hill farmers, well wave goodbye to them if you scrapped grant support for them whilst allowing in NZ sheep tariff free.

 

And my chartered accountant brother has dealt with helping uk financial services companies deal in Canada, what they usually do is just set up a canadian subsidiary as easier - he has done a couple of visits over there in the last year between helping companies move to spain/frankfurt

 

 

 

Edited by SSoutherner

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2 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Slightly off topic, but in the event that those pesky politicians ever get around to letting us leave, we need to forge a new place in the world.

Anyone heard of the CANZUK proposal?

It's essentially a loose union of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and The UK.  It includes free movement, defense, security and foreign relations co-operation and a free trade area.

Personally, I think we'd be more at home here than in the EU.  The four countries have lots more in common than the EU28 do.

https://www.canzukinternational.com/

Steady.   It’s only Remoaners that bang on about the Empire.     You’ll give the game away with talk like this.

 


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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2 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Actually, it's because South Africa's (along with India, Pakistan etc) economy is nowhere near the level that these four are.

One of The EU's myriad of problems is that it is nowhere near a union of equals.

So it’s just the “white colonies” then?


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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2 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Actually, it's because South Africa's (along with India, Pakistan etc) economy is nowhere near the level that these four are.

One of The EU's myriad of problems is that it is nowhere near a union of equals.

If you look at the UK as a collection of smaller regions it is equally disparate to the EU, compare London to the SW or Scottish Highlands

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4 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Tarifs on imports on things such as lamb, wheat, chicken, etc.  Common standards which prevent undercutting by cheap substandard products.  

Don't we have this crazy situation where at present we export most of our farm produce (not including milk and eggs) and then import the same kind of stuff back again from other EU countries?

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2 hours ago, Steve May said:

So it’s just the “white colonies” then?

Australia is white?  New Zealand is white?  Indeed, Canada, is that white too? Dear me.  You need to take another look I think.  Or maybe you don't think first nations folk still exist in these countries?

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26 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

We haven't actually had Brexit yet, in case you may not have noticed, as the PM keeps kicking the appeasement can down the road.  So given that we haven't actually left the EU yet, the poll can hardly be a comment upon Brexit, can it?

Also, if memory serves, most of the pre-referendum polls said remain would win the vote, sometimes by quite a large margin.  Polls are only snapshot suggestions and their responses all depend upon what question was asked and when it was asked.

You keep on about "We haven't left yet." Can I suggest a rugby analogy? On Monday, after 60 minutes, St. Helens were a long way ahead of Hull FC. The game hadn't finished yet, but did you really think Saints were not going to win? Seriously? There is evidence right in front of your nose, yet you choose to ignore it. Fine! But others can sense which way the wind is blowing.


Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

Founder (and, so far, only) member.

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1 hour ago, tonyXIII said:

You keep on about "We haven't left yet." Can I suggest a rugby analogy? On Monday, after 60 minutes, St. Helens were a long way ahead of Hull FC. The game hadn't finished yet, but did you really think Saints were not going to win? Seriously? There is evidence right in front of your nose, yet you choose to ignore it. Fine! But others can sense which way the wind is blowing.

You can suggest such an analogy but it doesn't work.  Unlike a rugby match, the Brexit negotiations could go on and on and on or indeed be reversed unilaterally.  Neither scenario applies to a rugby match!

There can only be evidence of something that has actually happened.  People use the word 'evidence' when they mean 'projection' or 'assumption' or 'guess'.  We have not yet left the EU in any shape or form.  We are still fully paid up (and fully paying) members of the EU with all that that entails.  Therefore, there isn't any evidence relating to leaving the EU as we have not yet left.  That is an actual fact, not just my opinion.  The only evidence on display relates to the uncertainty created by not knowing when or in what way we are going to leave (assuming that we do; I have stopped assuming that lately given all the machinations in Parliament).  

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Try weather forecasting, then. If the barometer drops, I can predict bad weather is on its way. The pressure drop is evidence. People can view evidence like this and make predictions. Despite Michael Fish's hurricane, the Met Office is usually quite accurate. You can see things coming before they actually arrive.

By the way, your saying "that is fact, not just my opinion" does not make it a fact.

 

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Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

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People on here have done a good job of putting down the risible notion of the 'CANZUK' thing as an alternative to EU membership.

But one point I haven't seen made is that all of the things described are possible, and already happen, while the UK is in the EU. Apart from increased imports of NZ lamb.

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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