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Clogiron

Reserve league

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Notice that Wigan said to be pulling out of it and going back down the dual reg path due to only 7 team's signing up for it for the forthcoming season and one of thems Keighley! Same old RFL and SL come to that, can't organise the proverbial in a brewery then the all new super shiney Elstone led SL moves magic to Anfield and punches rules from the NRL including the laughable golden point. I've made my views on how I believe reserve team's could be improved for the game as a whole before, but that aside what's really been implemented that's going to take the game forward?

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Very disappointed about this and still feel that running a reserve team should be a condition of entry to Super League.

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2 hours ago, Damien said:

Very disappointed about this and still feel that running a reserve team should be a condition of entry to Super League.

Very much agree, although with the possible exception of any non-UK/London club as can understand their view on costs etc. The 7 clubs for 2019 would have probably been 6 in reality as Keighley sadly have their own well documented issues. Still, 6 clubs play each other 3 times = 15 games, thrown in play offs and an Alliance cup on top gets you nearer 20, sounds achievable.

Edited by Whippet13
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There are clubs that don't enter a team in to a reserve league because they dont think a reserves league works very well.

Most sports are moving away from a reserve league, even the PL would rather see its best young players playing first team games on loan than playing in the development league. A reserves league is a backwards step

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What I don't get is the clubs - and there seems to be a fair few of them - who say they don't want to run a reserve team because there aren't enough other teams doing so.

I might be being dim here - but why don't all those clubs.. .you know... speak to one another and all agree that they will, in fact, run reserve teams?

Job done?

The cynic in me suggests that some clubs aren't really interested in running a reserve teams, but it kinda makes them look better if they pretend they are....

At least when it comes to Leeds, we know where they stand, even if some people disagree with their stance!

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Is a reserve league necessary in 2019 and beyond? Would a reserve league be beneficial to the Super League clubs? Would a reserve league be of a higher standard than sending a player to the Championship or League One?

As an example based upon the planned reserve league, what would be of more valuable to a young Wigan player, playing Keighley in a largely meaningless reserve game or being sent to Swinton, who’s potential two points have more weight than those of a Wigan reserve side? 

 

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Is a reserve league necessary in 2019 and beyond? Would a reserve league be beneficial to the Super League clubs? Would a reserve league be of a higher standard than sending a player to the Championship or League One?

As an example based upon the planned reserve league, what would be of more valuable to a young Wigan player, playing Keighley in a largely meaningless reserve game or being sent to Swinton, who’s potential two points have more weight than those of a Wigan reserve side? 

 

     I thought the perceived wisdom of the elite owners was that League 1 was to be done away with?

     The last Grand Final was played between 2 clubs that both had reserve sides.

    I thought whenever the Home Nations lose against Australia they blame it on the player pool being too shallow.

     Ergo,the elite clubs,at least,should have reserve sides and grow the player pool instead of going round in ever decreasing circles. 

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7 hours ago, Clogiron said:

Notice that Wigan said to be pulling out of it and going back down the dual reg path due to only 7 team's signing up for it for the forthcoming season and one of thems Keighley! Same old RFL and SL come to that, can't organise the proverbial in a brewery then the all new super shiney Elstone led SL moves magic to Anfield and punches rules from the NRL including the laughable golden point. I've made my views on how I believe reserve team's could be improved for the game as a whole before, but that aside what's really been implemented that's going to take the game forward?

Have Wigan 'pulled out'?  Is not the problem that there are not enough other reserve teams for a full fixture list? But they will still play some games?

Wigan did play a few reserve games last season...  but are they not saying that next season they will still have to ship out some players to Swinton ?

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9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

     I thought the perceived wisdom of the elite owners was that League 1 was to be done away with?

     The last Grand Final was played between 2 clubs that both had reserve sides.

    I thought whenever the Home Nations lose against Australia they blame it on the player pool being too shallow.

     Ergo,the elite clubs,at least,should have reserve sides and grow the player pool instead of going round in ever decreasing circles. 

What you think and fact is often a very different thing. 

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As League 1 have lost teams and there aren't enough teams for a proper reserve league then a solution could be to put the reserve teams in League 1. The reserve teams would have a full season of competitive games and the League 1 clubs will have more home games.

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On 11/20/2018 at 4:55 PM, Damien said:

Very disappointed about this and still feel that running a reserve team should be a condition of entry to Super League.

Nail, Hammer and Head in your sentance Damien, the yet to be published statement made by Mr Leneghan at the unvieling of Mr Elstone re the acceptable criteria for entry into SL by the club who gains promotion in 2019. 

I believe this is a specific ploy by SL and also a double edge sword, not only would it allow any Championship club access to SL, it is also ringfencing the incumbant SL clubs of not having to also 'tick' that box of employing a reserves stipulation.

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11 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

As League 1 have lost teams and there aren't enough teams for a proper reserve league then a solution could be to put the reserve teams in League 1. The reserve teams would have a full season of competitive games and the League 1 clubs will have more home games.

You would think that at some stage it would have occurred to the game that having teams with no players, and players who have nowhere to play has a pretty simple and easy solution.

But no, instead we continue to argue about whether the 60s and 70s will happen again for some reason.

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11 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

As League 1 have lost teams and there aren't enough teams for a proper reserve league then a solution could be to put the reserve teams in League 1. The reserve teams would have a full season of competitive games and the League 1 clubs will have more home games.

Well, The RFL needs to work out what the purpose and point of League One is. The admission of the All Golds, Hemel and Oxford saw it seemingly as a Development League but then a couple of years later when traditional clubs were introduced, the gap between teams at League One become huge. 

If League One is seen as a Development League then one idea is as you say, merging the Super League reserve sides into the structure and having a League One that comprises of Super League Reserve teams and then some development sides. How financially viable that will be for clubs, I’m not too sure and will the Championship teams like it if say Wigan Reserves stormed League One and won promotion to the Championship?

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14 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Well, The RFL needs to work out what the purpose and point of League One is. The admission of the All Golds, Hemel and Oxford saw it seemingly as a Development League but then a couple of years later when traditional clubs were introduced, the gap between teams at League One become huge. 

If League One is seen as a Development League then one idea is as you say, merging the Super League reserve sides into the structure and having a League One that comprises of Super League Reserve teams and then some development sides. How financially viable that will be for clubs, I’m not too sure and will the Championship teams like it if say Wigan Reserves stormed League One and won promotion to the Championship?

Your last sentence makes the point ... It does not really makes sense. 

In so far that the championship claim to be at least semi professional, then there should be 12 superleague reserves plus all those in the Championship who claim to aspire to superleague status who wish to be in a distinct reserves league. 

In my opinion those clubs in the Championship (and indeed superleague) who are not able to run reserves in such a league should not be eligible for promotion to superleague.

There is an argument of course that says that some TV money should be ring fenced for such a reserves league. And that this money is also ring fenced within each clubs reserve organisation. Perhaps it could be paid out as 'appearance money'. 

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4 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Your last sentence makes the point ... It does not really makes sense. 

In so far that the championship claim to be at least semi professional, then there should be 12 superleague reserves plus all those in the Championship who claim to aspire to superleague status who wish to be in a distinct reserves league. 

In my opinion those clubs in the Championship (and indeed superleague) who are not able to run reserves in such a league should not be eligible for promotion to superleague.

There is an argument of course that says that some TV money should be ring fenced for such a reserves league. And that this money is also ring fenced within each clubs reserve organisation. Perhaps it could be paid out as 'appearance money'. 

All Super League clubs are able to run a reserves. Some have said they don't wish to because it doesnt work, not only that it can be damaging for the lower league sides and the community game.

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U18s and u20s/u21s/reserves or whatever you call it, is the way forward. We used to have it, the move away was ridiculous.

 The 3 year gap from u16s to u19s is too large

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Clubs seem more commited to running women's teams than reserves it seems.... I agree with this but without the reserves we lose 100s of players in what is a diminishing talent pool, most top SL players came thru reserves, even if its an u23 league....as for using DR/loans to get experience for youth, it works but suggesting this be the only way to develop players passes the buck! Even if teams work together for reserves.... Like city of hull, it reduces costs, but if costs are not the issue in SL, yes with Champ/L1....ringfence funding for reserves/incentivise i.e extra cash from RFL to help

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The player pool is the RFL Register of Players, broken down into 37 Sub Sections, and an Unsigned Players Section (Free Agents) ......DR is not a pathway whereas a Reserve League Place could be considered a secondary pathway to the player pool along with, obviously the U19 Academy League, as Acdemy signs U16 Community Club Players, reserve League opens a pathway for U18 Community Club Players whom show potential that little bit later.....

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I’m not disputing that player’s fall out of the game but is there any statistics into how many people leave a Super League club at 18/19 and then never play a game of Rugby League again or how many filter down to the lower leagues? It seems to be wheeled out when the reserve league argument is brought up but I can never recall seeing any figures about this and I’d like to. 

I would also like to know the amount of Super League contracted players who don’t make their debut till 21, as it seems that if players are indeed good enough, they make generally make their debuts much earlier than that age. 

I know people yearn for the halcyon days of ‘A’ Team Rugby being brought back but I do wonder if that format is outdated. It certainly is in Football and the Under-23 league that is in place there is seen as a bit of a joke competition. 

I’m not sure that if something worked in the past, it means it will work well now. Times change and the game evolves. 

Ultimately, clubs will want quality games over a quantity of games and that is the barometer they’ll work off. Is a reserve game against Keighley reserves of a high enough quality to warrant taking part in? Or is sending players out on loan to Oldham, Swinton, Workington who are playing for points in a proper promotion and relegation league? 

I’m really not sure what’s for the best in this regard.  I think it’s not as simple as saying that a reserve league is best, I think there needs to be proper research into this to decide what’s best for the game. 

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

All Super League clubs are able to run a reserves. Some have said they don't wish to because it doesnt work, not only that it can be damaging for the lower league sides and the community game.

No, that's rubbish.  With no clubs available, there are no reserve at all.

It may be a good idea for you to say Wigan can find and develop players so that they can cast them off so that Leigh and Salford can save them the trouble, and money, and pick them up.

But why should Wigan keep on picking that tab up?   The lower leagues and community game? Why can't they create their own players?  What's the point of a club if it cannot create it's players? 

I wish Toronto all the best, but it needs to create it's own players too.  But both it and many clubs rely on Aussie cast offs from a system which creates many more then we can.  

And baring injuries, clubs like Wigan just let surplus players sit in the stand. And then wonder off to do something else.

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8 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I’m not disputing that player’s fall out of the game but is there any statistics into how many people leave a Super League club at 18/19 and then never play a game of Rugby League again or how many filter down to the lower leagues? It seems to be wheeled out when the reserve league argument is brought up but I can never recall seeing any figures about this and I’d like to. I’m really not sure what’s for the best in this regard.  I think it’s not as simple as saying that a reserve league is best, I think there needs to be proper research into this to decide what’s best for the game. 

Good point OC

Pretty much every year we have half a dozen 'new Academy signings' paraded on the pitch at Odsal, a decent number of whom have made their way through to the First Team at the Bulls - but a significant number who have not.

Some while ago I tried to look into what had happened to some of those who appear to have slipped through the net - in a very scientific way, basically recalling the names of a few and then Googling them. I found one had ended up at Dewsbury, another was playing for an amateur team in the area, but the rest appear to have totally vanished from the game. I suspect - even allowing for the fact that it was a VERY small sample size - that is not that untypical.

It would be an interesting and extremely informative piece of work for someone at the RFL to chase down a decent sized sample of Academy graduates from, say, the past five years of a cross-section of clubs. Perhaps the RFL could find an intern or work with a local college to have someone do that? That way we could get genuine information on why young players might be being lost to the game and - more importantly - what could be done about it.

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Mr Clothsoff...  Certainly in the Premiership football those teams have effectively 2 teams, many bought in from abroad.  This because they rotate their players one week to the next and prioritise Europe, League Cups and inbetween that they prioritise top 6 and relegation and promotion. 

But also does this very system that you might approve off be already limiting the numbers and experience of England football qualified players.  Indeed we read recently about young players going out of our system and going to Germany to get opportunities. Does this not make us wonder how many players just give up before they have had a chance?

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