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ckn

"Jihadi Bride" story

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Let's start with the moderating note that if this turns into an anti-immigration or anti-Muslim thing then I'll probably just lock it and then consider what to do with the poster.  I'd hope people would have got that by now and don't try, there are other forums out there where you can waft your little-Englander willies if you want.  Let's see if we can do this civilly and rationally...

I'm genuinely conflicted with this story of the heavily pregnant young woman who left for ISIS held lands and to be a bride to an ISIS fighter. 

My soft liberal side says she was only 15 when she went there, was clearly brainwashed and deserves a chance at rehabilitation. 

Every other single bit of me says that she's made her bed now let her lie in it.  The ONLY reason she wants to come back is that there's nowhere else for her to go and no-one else wants her.  She still holds exactly the same beliefs and feelings and is openly unrepentant.  She openly chose another "country" over the UK and, as a minimum, aided and abetted those fighting against British forces and interests.  I can see zero chance that she'll reintegrate into the UK and will likely be a persistent source of threat to the UK.  If ISIS2 popped up then she'd be off there any way she could and sod any second chance we'd given her.

If I were Home Secretary then I'd lose zero sleep if she didn't come back.  I'd also be content to see her lose her British citizenship, even if that means she becomes a citizen of nowhere.  We cannot accept people who fight against us then only want to come back because they've nothing else.

Anyone willing to try to convince me I'm wrong? I would be delighted if you could as it does make me feel a bit grubby cutting off a young woman like that from any hope of rehabilitation.

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3 minutes ago, ckn said:

Anyone willing to try to convince me I'm wrong?

The only bit of your comment I think is wrong is your "soft liberal" side. Apart from that, I'm in total agreement with you. 

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3 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

British citizen so our problem.  I wouldn't necessary go and get her mind you.  

I agree. I assume we do have some treason type laws still, so throw the book at her using them.

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2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I assume we do have some treason type laws still, so throw the book at her using them.

Nope.  Unless it involves trying to over through the Queen.  

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1 minute ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Please find the offence she has committed on that wiki link.  

  • adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere

?

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2 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Nope.  Unless it involves trying to over through the Queen.  

But isn’t that the ultimate aim of ISIS, World domination, ruled by Islam fundamentalists.

If they were successful that would lead to the overthrow of all democratic Governments and Royalty.

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1 minute ago, Moose said:

But isn’t that the ultimate aim of ISIS, World domination, ruled by Islam fundamentalists.

If they were successful that would lead to the overthrow of all democratic Governments and Royalty.

Maybe, but our treason laws don't cover it.  Mainly because they are mostly about overthrowing the Monarch, being a catholic priest, forging money, etc.  Mostly written well over 100 years ago.  Plus we aren't (legally, as far as I'm aware) at war, so those legal options are off the table.

I'm not a lawyer.  

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I'd make her clear a minefield with a 14 pound hammer before coming back, I joined the army at 15 and by the time I was 19 I was a section commander in Belfast.

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I too am conflicted, however I probably lean on the side that we should get her (parts of my family would burn me for saying this).

Thing is, an underage girl was, essentially groomed online, and ran off to join, I don't want to use the word cult, but its pretty close in this instance. Had she been groomed and raped by a priest (on the understanding that underage sex can never be consensual), or groomed and joined some other religious cults, then she would be offered a lot of support.

Sometimes the bad decisions we make as a child can never be fixed or forgotten.

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1 minute ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Maybe, but our treason laws don't cover it.  Mainly because they are mostly about overthrowing the Monarch, being a catholic priest, forging money, etc.  Mostly written well over 100 years ago.  Plus we aren't (legally, as far as I'm aware) at war, so those legal options are off the table.

I'm not a lawyer.  

The only laws really that could be 100% guaranteed to succeed would be the membership of a proscribed organisation ones.  Even then, do we really want to just lock her up where she could influence others in her prison?

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I think she should be allowed back, but would be happier if we could try her for something. But has she committed a crime? Not sure. 

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35 minutes ago, ckn said:

Let's start with the moderating note that if this turns into an anti-immigration or anti-Muslim thing then I'll probably just lock it and then consider what to do with the poster.  I'd hope people would have got that by now and don't try, there are other forums out there where you can waft your little-Englander willies if you want.  Let's see if we can do this civilly and rationally...

I'm genuinely conflicted with this story of the heavily pregnant young woman who left for ISIS held lands and to be a bride to an ISIS fighter. 

My soft liberal side says she was only 15 when she went there, was clearly brainwashed and deserves a chance at rehabilitation. 

Every other single bit of me says that she's made her bed now let her lie in it.  The ONLY reason she wants to come back is that there's nowhere else for her to go and no-one else wants her.  She still holds exactly the same beliefs and feelings and is openly unrepentant.  She openly chose another "country" over the UK and, as a minimum, aided and abetted those fighting against British forces and interests.  I can see zero chance that she'll reintegrate into the UK and will likely be a persistent source of threat to the UK.  If ISIS2 popped up then she'd be off there any way she could and sod any second chance we'd given her.

If I were Home Secretary then I'd lose zero sleep if she didn't come back.  I'd also be content to see her lose her British citizenship, even if that means she becomes a citizen of nowhere.  We cannot accept people who fight against us then only want to come back because they've nothing else.

Anyone willing to try to convince me I'm wrong? I would be delighted if you could as it does make me feel a bit grubby cutting off a young woman like that from any hope of rehabilitation.

There's a child about to be born. Assuming it survives, it is innocent and does not deserve to suffer because its mother is a horrendous failure of a human being. Something has to be done there.

The mother? I am so far beyond conflicted I'm doing a passable Chidi impression. A child (in law) when she went. Who was clearly under the spell of her father - a man so honest and true that he might as well wear a Choudhary facemask when being interviewed - and who will subsequently have had the pleasure of being a woman in ISISland, i.e. she will have had any independent thought beaten out of her and been taught again and again that her role is to submit. And, ultimately, she is a British citizen.

We can't avoid things because they are hard. If we are Christian we have to believe in salvation. If we are humanist, we have to believe in the possibility of shared humanity. And if we are pragmatic folk who like to say prisons and justice are about rehabilitation then we have to believe that that is true for everyone.

So ... without in any way suggesting we race off on a rescue mission ... support the about-to-be-born, punt our bride's father in the nuts and into prison, put her within the justice system, let PREVENT do their job, don't make her a martyr.

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We went soft around 1998.

Under the law of the United Kingdom, high treason is the crime of disloyalty to the Crown. ... The last treason trial was that of William Joyce, "Lord Haw-Haw", who was executed by hanging in 1946. Since the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 became law, the maximum sentence for treason in the UK has been life imprisonment.

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I think she should be allowed back, but would be happier if we could try her for something. But has she committed a crime? Not sure. 

Was she the one who stole her sisters passport ? 

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2 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

I too am conflicted, however I probably lean on the side that we should get her (parts of my family would burn me for saying this).

Thing is, an underage girl was, essentially groomed online, and ran off to join, I don't want to use the word cult, but its pretty close in this instance. Had she been groomed and raped by a priest (on the understanding that underage sex can never be consensual), or groomed and joined some other religious cults, then she would be offered a lot of support.

Sometimes the bad decisions we make as a child can never be fixed or forgotten.

I get that, and it was how the James O'Brien show today ran it, "what if she were a cult member?"

The difference is for me that she didn't just join a cult, she joined an organisation actively militarily opposing Britain.  She left the country and took up with a foreign nation state that is fighting us and has very clear stated aims against us.  She is showing zero recognition that she might be wrong, she simply wants to come here because she has nowhere else to go.

If she had just joined a cult, even if she openly said she didn't regret a second, that's different as that's not a military state fighting us and responsible for innocent deaths.  That's the trigger for me, fight against Britain for a foreign power and you're effectively saying you don't want your British citizenship any longer.

I guess it's just one of these things and I'm actually quite glad that I don't have to make that choice.

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

There's a child about to be born. Assuming it survives, it is innocent and does not deserve to suffer because its mother is a horrendous failure of a human being. Something has to be done there.

The mother? I am so far beyond conflicted I'm doing a passable Chidi impression. A child (in law) when she went. Who was clearly under the spell of her father - a man so honest and true that he might as well wear a Choudhary facemask when being interviewed - and who will subsequently have had the pleasure of being a woman in ISISland, i.e. she will have had any independent thought beaten out of her and been taught again and again that her role is to submit. And, ultimately, she is a British citizen.

We can't avoid things because they are hard. If we are Christian we have to believe in salvation. If we are humanist, we have to believe in the possibility of shared humanity. And if we are pragmatic folk who like to say prisons and justice are about rehabilitation then we have to believe that that is true for everyone.

So ... without in any way suggesting we race off on a rescue mission ... support the about-to-be-born, punt our bride's father in the nuts and into prison, put her within the justice system, let PREVENT do their job, don't make her a martyr.

Excellent post, wish I'd have made a bit more effort than my one-liner now!

Would probably agree with every word of the above.

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She and others like her lost all their rights when they decided to go and fight for a medieval evil cult who are hell bent on trying to destroy everything we cherish , and massacre innocent men women and kids in the street , and want to decimate civilisation . Tough sh!t , rot away there . You made your choice and had a lot of time to change your mind . If I was ultra cynical I’d say she’s using being 9 months pregnant as a sympathy vote to come back 

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

There's a child about to be born. Assuming it survives, it is innocent and does not deserve to suffer because its mother is a horrendous failure of a human being. Something has to be done there.

The mother? I am so far beyond conflicted I'm doing a passable Chidi impression. A child (in law) when she went. Who was clearly under the spell of her father - a man so honest and true that he might as well wear a Choudhary facemask when being interviewed - and who will subsequently have had the pleasure of being a woman in ISISland, i.e. she will have had any independent thought beaten out of her and been taught again and again that her role is to submit. And, ultimately, she is a British citizen.

We can't avoid things because they are hard. If we are Christian we have to believe in salvation. If we are humanist, we have to believe in the possibility of shared humanity. And if we are pragmatic folk who like to say prisons and justice are about rehabilitation then we have to believe that that is true for everyone.

So ... without in any way suggesting we race off on a rescue mission ... support the about-to-be-born, punt our bride's father in the nuts and into prison, put her within the justice system, let PREVENT do their job, don't make her a martyr.

That's about the best case I've seen for letting her back in.  Let her in, let her have the kid and then get it out and into the "system" anonymously and as far from her and her family as possible.  Then treat her like Rolf Harris hanging around a kids party.

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Just now, ckn said:

I get that, and it was how the James O'Brien show today ran it, "what if she were a cult member?"

The difference is for me that she didn't just join a cult, she joined an organisation actively militarily opposing Britain.  She left the country and took up with a foreign nation state that is fighting us and has very clear stated aims against us.  She is showing zero recognition that she might be wrong, she simply wants to come here because she has nowhere else to go.

If she had just joined a cult, even if she openly said she didn't regret a second, that's different as that's not a military state fighting us and responsible for innocent deaths.  That's the trigger for me, fight against Britain for a foreign power and you're effectively saying you don't want your British citizenship any longer.

I guess it's just one of these things and I'm actually quite glad that I don't have to make that choice.

TBF I hadn't listened to the show on it or read that she didn't regret it. At the end of the day it comes back to her being brainwashed, as a minor. If she comes back and agrees, and commits to some sort of rehabilitation program then I'd still be ok with that. Otherwise I hope she finds somewhere safe to raise her child and they don't make the same mistakes she did.

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Would she want to come back if she had not been pregnant after losing  two children in child birth previously - I doubt it!!!

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She made immense preparations and followed it through by going , and stayed . Her youth and being ‘ brainwashed ‘ doesn’t cover all that for me . She was aware and it seems is unrepentant . There’s no middle ground with these people imo , play by their rules 

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3 minutes ago, DavidM said:

She made immense preparations and followed it through by going , and stayed . Her youth and being ‘ brainwashed ‘ doesn’t cover all that for me . She was aware and it seems is unrepentant . There’s no middle ground with these people imo , play by their rules 

Well no, we absolutely should not play by their rules.

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