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Bert1

How long for France to do a Tonga?

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France to have a decent international side... by decent, you mean capable of beating Australia? It’s inconceivable in the current format of northern RL. 

Capable of being the fourth strongest nation? 10 years minimum from a second French team gaining SL status.

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37 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

France to have a decent international side... by decent, you mean capable of beating Australia? It’s inconceivable in the current format of northern RL. 

Capable of being the fourth strongest nation? 10 years minimum from a second French team gaining SL status.

Australia rarely lose so beating them would make France better than decent. 


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4 hours ago, Bert1 said:

If Toulouse got promoted in the near future how long would it take France to become Tier 1ish level? 5-10 years?

50-100 years more like ?

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5 hours ago, Bert1 said:

If Toulouse got promoted in the near future how long would it take France to become Tier 1ish level? 5-10 years?

About 20 years after Australia starts to take large numbers of French immigrants.

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Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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A second French team in SL would be good, then French broadcaster can show a game every week, have a French derby every year and provides another platform for French players 

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7 hours ago, Bert1 said:

If Toulouse got promoted in the near future how long would it take France to become Tier 1ish level? 5-10 years?

They'd need at least 4 teams up to SL level to even come close to NZ, England or Australia.

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5 hours ago, Allora said:

About 20 years after Australia starts to take large numbers of French immigrants.

There's many more people of French heritage in Australia than there are Tongans.


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17 minutes ago, Pulga said:

There's many more people of French heritage in Australia than there are Tongans.

How many recently and do they play Rugby League. 

 


Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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There is 10k Tongans born in Tonga that now call Australia home.

There are 25k French born now-Australians.

We need to tap into this.

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8 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

A second French team in SL would be good, then French broadcaster can show a game every week, have a French derby every year and provides another platform for French players 

I agree with this and see it as a realistic goal. TO could make it as a SL club. Some of the French lads who in theory are not quite up to SL level would suprise us ala London broncos largely English and not got much SL experience team is doing. 

Licencing would really help RL in France. Ie 2 French teams guaranteed in SL. This would allow the French clubs to actually commit to 9 French qualifying players in the match day squad every game. Ie over 50% of the 17.

As for being competitive and even able to win over Oz and NZ and England, I would say need at least 50 first 13 players in SL and a handful of NRL players to do this. So that's a long way off if ever. 

You need alot of depth to really build at international level. Look at England and the quality forwards who won't get into the side or that TJ isn't first choice on the wing and BJB isn't at England standard. Both would walk into the French backline where there are a lack of international level wingers. 

Edited by Southerner80

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2 hours ago, Pulga said:

There are 25k French born now-Australians.

We need to tap into this.

Do you really think 25,000 people is enough to develop quality Superleague players from?

How many of them are interested in even playing a game of Rugby League??

How many would even be capable of catching a ball at speed or making a tackle on a 16 stone bloke??

Look forward to the answer to that??

10 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

A second French team in SL would be good, then French broadcaster can show a game every week, have a French derby every year and provides another platform for French players 

Les Catalans only have an SL team because they import 12 players from England and overseas. 

The strength of French RL was on show in the autumn - a combined TOO/Les Cats team 0-38 down at half time in the test in which England rested their best players.

French broadcasters may well take the games but they won't pay for them? Would you allow two French SL clubs to take the English SKY money?? What do you think the English SL clubs and SKY would think of that??

well over £4,000,000 of the English TV deal a year going to two guest clubs in France??

Who is stepping aside for Toulouse - do you want to ring Ken Davey and tell him he is?

How does a "derby" create players, how has junior RL in Hull grown since the Hull derby's came back? I hear they chopped out one of the academies?

2 hours ago, Southerner80 said:

I agree with this and see it as a realistic goal. TO could make it as a SL club. Some of the French lads who in theory are not quite up to SL level would suprise us ala London broncos.

Licencing would really help RL in France. Ie 2 French teams guaranteed in SL. This would allow the French clubs to actually commit to 9 French qualifying players in the match day squad every game. Ie over 50% of the 17. 

So London Broncos are now being touted as a club with a quality SL team? Quality coach maybe.

You make Les Catalans put 9 French players in the first team every match and see how they go?? Even they don't believe you hence 12 non-french players are first picks.

Here's the bottom line. If you want a quality French International side you need an extensive French Junior game with the best players gravitating to an  academy system in which hundreds of decent kids will get a chance to hone their skills. From that one or two per hundred will make it to Les Catalans or Toulouse per season and may or may not make a fist of being a Superleague regular.

So how IS the French player  development system going anyone??

Edited by The Parksider

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31 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Here's the bottom line. If you want a quality French International side you need an extensive French Junior game with the best players gravitating to an  academy system in which hundreds of decent kids will get a chance to hone their skills. From that one or two per hundred will make it to Les Catalans or Toulouse per season and may or may not make a fist of being a Superleague regular.

So how IS the French player  development system going anyone??

Now anybody in the real world with a modicom of sense know's precisely that this is the way that elite player's in any sport are generated, but the real world and sense are foriegn to this site when it comes to the question of expansion.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Now anybody in the real world with a modicom of sense know's precisely that this is the way that elite player's in any sport are generated, but the real world and sense are foriegn to this site when it comes to the question of expansion.

I think thats unfair. However, lack of focus on the junior game is common throughout British RL from the very top, so its hard to have a go on the basis of a few posters.

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For France to succeed its clear they need not only more professionals in SL and championship, but a few of them in the NRL too - particularly forwards. 

They'll never be a team like Tonga, who are essentially players who go through the Oz and NZ systems and then declare for Tonga. Realistically they're on a level with PNG and Wales. For me, for France (and indeed Wales and PNG and the rest of international RL), we need to be playing more serious Internationals. International sport cuts across better than any club can and success and exposure at that level drives interest and participation. At the moment French RL is more squeezed and regionalised than even English RL is - that will take time and effort to change.

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2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Les Catalans only have an SL team because they import 12 players from England and overseas. 

The strength of French RL was on show in the autumn - a combined TOO/Les Cats team 0-38 down at half time in the test in which England rested their best players.

French broadcasters may well take the games but they won't pay for them? Would you allow two French SL clubs to take the English SKY money?? What do you think the English SL clubs and SKY would think of that??

well over £4,000,000 of the English TV deal a year going to two guest clubs in France??

Who is stepping aside for Toulouse - do you want to ring Ken Davey and tell him he is?

How does a "derby" create players, how has junior RL in Hull grown since the Hull derby's came back? I hear they chopped out one of the academies?

French TV didn’t pay for games because they don’t get a game every week. If you had 2 French teams then there would be a club playing at home each week. If you have 2 clubs they’re both entitled to TV money

Whos stepping aside for Toulouse? Well seeing as we have Promotion and Relegation, who ever finishes bottom will but Toulouse would still have to win the GF. Alternatively SL could expand to 14 with Toulouse and another club stepping up

A French derby would create more interest and publicity for the game in France

ovwrall producing better players is all down to money, time and resources 

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2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Do you really think 25,000 people is enough to develop quality Superleague players from?

How many of them are interested in even playing a game of Rugby League??

How many would even be capable of catching a ball at speed or making a tackle on a 16 stone bloke??

Look forward to the answer to that??

The thread is about comparing France to Tonga. The population is there to develop them in Australia. It's just about nurturing it properly.


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Peoples judgement of france and the progress made since Les Catalans came in to SL is clouded by the heritage debate.

Since Les Catalans have entered SL the amount of french players in SL has exploded. We have gone from 1 or 2 players to 20 or so players in about a decade plus about the same again in the lower leagues. Thats great work and its only not celebrated as an unequivocal success because of certain people's agendas.

The other issue is the one highlighted in this thread. People pretend something amazing has happened with Tonga that we should replicate. It has in a way, the idea that so many players would choose a tier 2 nation over a tier 1 nations because of their pride in the flag is wonderful. But the fact is that what France are doing is entirely different. They arent building a national squad of people coming through another countries system. They are building their own. That is something better but also something much more difficult and long term.

This causes a bit of a clash because for most nations we require heritage players to get the visibility and prestige and quality. To act as a focal point to bring those nations to the game. However because of the games strength in Australia, NZ and England, and the history of immigration and cultural links between the anglosphere and pacific nations the more successful we are with getting heritage players at Tonga or Samoa or Ireland the worse it is for France who arent taking in those heritage players.

We have to serve both of those masters. We need to find an international structure that allow us to see the great benefits of Taumololo playing for Tonga but also allows us to show the great work going on in France, but also in places like PNG and Fiji who now have pretty strong domestic setups. Not to mention the US and Jamaica and Serbia who have domestic scenes stronger than the likes of Scotland.

Ireland is a pretty good example the problem in that they have this split between trying to get more Irish developed players in the squad but to compete with any nation really they need heritage players because they all have them.

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Catalans have only been in the league 13 years and they’ve already won the cup with a bunch of home grown players and been to another final and play-off semi final. 

We’ve also seen french players move on and win the Grand Final at other clubs. 

Thats in a short space of time.

If Toulouse can come in and develop as many quality french players as Catalans have done hopefully the pool will also be big enough for each super league club to have 1-2 French players with a few scattered around the championship as well. 

Then in another 10 years perhaps the very best French players would find their way to the NRL, one has already been despite Catalans only being in Super League for 13 years. 

The process will be slow but in 15 years I think we’ll have:

10 quality French players at Catalans.

10 quality French players at Toulouse.

1-2 at each Super League club

2-3 in the NRL.

2-3 heritage players. 

Thats a pool of potentially 40-45 French players playing at the top level. That should be the aim. At that point I think you’d see huge competition for a spot in the French side and a massive improvement in their competitiveness. 

I’m happy with where we’re at right now when you consider the amount of time Catalans have been in Super League. 

A French team with that talent pool would be capable of beating New Zealand when they have an off day just like Fiji have done. They’d be capable of cementing their place alongside Fiji as a 5th/6th best nation who can compete with anyone on their day. 

With the Pacific showing rapid development hopefully it won’t be too long before we have 8 nations all capable of competing closely with each other. 

We need more players from France, PNG, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga playing in both the NRL and Super League for that to happen. 

 

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do a tonga? well I suppose if they all have enough to drink and someone puts black lace on they could all dance down the street linked together


the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but the crows are just as black

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21 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Australia rarely lose so beating them would make France better than decent. 

I said capable of beating Australia. At least Eng, NZ and maybe Tonga (for the next year or two) are on paper capable of beating Australia. They are all decent sides, including England, even though I can’t remember the last time they beat Australia.

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