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Bedfordshire Bronco

Internationals RL in a decade - best case scenario

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Whether you agree with it happening or not let's say SL in 3 years is 14 clubs with Toulouse/Catalan/Toronto/Ottawa....I know I know just go with it for now....

Let's then say for 7 years they develop at least 50% own grown players - potentially put is a stipulation for foreign teams

Where would they be in the international pecking order? NFL rejects alone would be a massive player pool talent to draw from. Could Canada become tier one?

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Whether you agree with it happening or not let's say SL in 3 years is 14 clubs with Toulouse/Catalan/Toronto/Ottawa....I know I know just go with it for now....

Let's then say for 7 years they develop at least 50% own grown players - potentially put is a stipulation for foreign teams

Where would they be in the international pecking order? NFL rejects alone would be a massive player pool talent to draw from. Could Canada become tier one?

 

 

Not a chance could they be number 1 in 7 years. Best case scenario is as good as Wales or France and even that is a huge stretch.

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8 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Not number one....tier one.....

North American sport development is something else....just think with the right planning it could happen

Tier 1 then, the same applies.

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It takes 10 years to develop an elite athlete.

You'll see very few coming through for at least a decade, and they won't be the top of the elite. They'll be lucky to be on the level of Scotland and Ireland without the expats in such a short time.

France, with more players in SL, could have a good chance.

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Domestic Canadian rugby league will not develop any players of international class until there are enough pro clubs there to fund a sustainable academy style league for 16-20 year olds to play in. That means academy style contracts for 200 or so players, full time coaches and facilities. That is an investment way beyond anything that one or two clubs can fund.

If we could get to that point, then the best graduates of those programs can then stay at a NA pro club or cross the Atlantic. But to be an elite RL player you need to be in an elite RL environment from 16 at the latest - possible in the UK, even for players from London/Newcastle etc, but not in North America. Entry level community leagues won't be enough unless the next step on the ladder is there. (And the American football conversion story is a dream and always will be for producing elite RL players.)

Now, in my view none of the above is any reason for not allowing the teams in - we need money more than anything else and more money will attract more players into the game. And potentially these teams can generate revenues that British RL can't. So it's worth the risk to me. But we shouldn't kid ourselves about what is possible on the player development front. 

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40 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

 (And the American football conversion story is a dream and always will be for producing elite RL players.)

Always wondered why this is the case. There are so many colleges and university teams let alone feeder teams and other competitions that we have never heard of.

In the past a big ask to expect a US player to pack up and try his luck over here. Now though a move to Ottowa, New York might be less of a risk. If TWP were in SL playing in a televised international league would be an attractive and financially viable option. 

Where do all the US football "rejects" go ?

 

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36 minutes ago, headtackle said:

 

It's not that they wouldnt be attracted, it's just that you can't turn an American footballer, however good, into a pro level rugby league player overnight. They are vastly different sports at elite level. It would take several years to build them up - which means there would have to be a NA reserve league or a lower tier NA pro competition for this to happen in, a much higher level of investment than currently promised. 

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NFL/CFL rejects are not going to make top RL players. They will be too old to learn the ins and outs to be a top professional. We need to get middle and high school programs going in US and Canada. Not everyone can afford a college education or will get a scholarship and that's the only way you can make it as a sports pro in NA. Here's where RL can step in and say you can go straight from school to a professional. Of course, we wouldn't get access to the top top athletes, but there are enough young athletic types who would make good wingers, forwards, centres. Don't only look at American football players though, sprinters, lacrosse, basketball players, volleyball players, wrestlers, water polo, soccer etc could all make decent RL players. 

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Sl teams now dont have 100% English and they have been playing for over 100 years in most cases 

Catalans have a good percentage but not enough and there needs to be.a second elite french team - the french leagues dont cut it at all

As for NA - a squad of 24 with 4-5 North American’s in it within 10 years so say 12-15 players across three teams out of potential 72 players —- if Ottawa.  Are truly about growing.  The Canadian game and are happy to run the same timeline Perez has touted then why not? - they wont be out of the championship inside the next 5 years on his timeline - he has inferred they have had talks with various players and i believe that includes local union teams in that area as well as sevens players. Again why not?

If a decent Canadian or USA RU player became available at the right price then I cant see TWP or NYC or Ottawa turning their back on that - player wages arent that good over there from what i have read - especially the recent spats with the sevens teams.

so anything between 10% and 20% of squads being North American born in the next 5-10 years would be a winner - watching Catalans play i wonder sometimes how they can field a team with so many non french in it but there you go - if you dont expose your best french players to elite rugby they wont grow and develop - but thats not really the clubs rationale is it?

They are there to represent Catalonia via Perpignan and they do that very well.

Same goes for Ottawa TWP NYC TOXIII - or London for that matter or Wigan or Leeds.

I am not sure demanding teams field at least 50% home grown players is the way to go.

I think making sure teams lay down meaningful community links and stimulate the growth of the game at a level below is more achievable and a better measure of what they are doing - a strong amateur presence and a community that supports the elite level

TWP are a different model for many reasons and in reality they are a bit isolated from any amateur scene in Canada - but Toronto is the second biggest city in North America -so as a strategic target its bullseye and a success to date - its how that model extends and grows that is important

With the new bids its about that sustainable approach as there is an amateur presence in NYC and a league albeit amateur - Ottawa have already put up a model that fixes the many whinges on here

My concern is not any of them but TOXIII - they have swum against the tide for a very long time, the refusal to allow the long promised development of their ground was mystifying and very suspicious as they are now dependant on the good will of the french ru teams around them - I appreciate french ru is running out of steam a bit but a wounded snake is something to watch out for. We dont want to lose them now.

 

Edited by Kris
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The more North American professional teams in Super League/the English system the easier it will be to get a strong domestic league through these teams and reserve sides in which they can develop and blood domestic players. 

Edited by Damien

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41 minutes ago, londonrlfan said:

NFL/CFL rejects are not going to make top RL players. They will be too old to learn the ins and outs to be a top professional. We need to get middle and high school programs going in US and Canada. Not everyone can afford a college education or will get a scholarship and that's the only way you can make it as a sports pro in NA. Here's where RL can step in and say you can go straight from school to a professional. Of course, we wouldn't get access to the top top athletes, but there are enough young athletic types who would make good wingers, forwards, centres. Don't only look at American football players though, sprinters, lacrosse, basketball players, volleyball players, wrestlers, water polo, soccer etc could all make decent RL players. 

In principle yes, but what do you do with all these 17 year olds who've never played Rugby league? There's no way they could even float in L1 straightaway let alone SL. They'll need at least 3 years of elite development, equivalent to a top tier UK academy. They won't be able to come over to the UK to do it (visas) , and criss-crossing the Atlantic like Wolfpack won't be viable for a youth team. So a NA academy network on a par with SL's will need to be set up. 

That's a huge financial commitment that will only pay off in the very long term. Actually NA is the one place it might work becasue of the sheer number of young athletes available but who's going to fund it, the cost will be in the millions. 

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It’s taken London almost 40 years to field a side with barely a handful of elite homegrown players.

Seven years for Canada to be tier one seems wildly optimistic.

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My best case scenario would be England winning some major tournaments with France, Wales and Pacific Islands getting to some finals and more teams being competitive at tier 2

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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

It’s taken London almost 40 years to field a side with barely a handful of elite homegrown players.

Seven years for Canada to be tier one seems wildly optimistic.

Big difference being the amount of backing in North America seems huge. In addition Toronto alone have already got more local interest in a couple of years than we've had over 40 years. Also, if they home produce people like Clubb/Sarginson etc they will have the money to keep them

Edited by Bedfordshire Bronco

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As I've said on here before, only a handful of players in American (and Canadian) Footballers ever learn the sort of transferable skills for Rugby League.  If you look at American Football pitching technique, it's risible nonsense that wouldn't cut it as a Rugby League pass.  Some roles are so specialised that, for instance, offensive linemen exist just to block.  You seldom see a quarterback punt and I don't think one has regularly kicked since George Blanda in the early 70s.  It's ridiculous language but they'd need to delearn to relearn.  Can you become an elite player if you've never even passed a ball properly until the age of 22?  I know Crusaders had some French kid who'd played in NFL Europe at one point but he didn't make it.

I convinced myself in the past it could be possible.  I'm now convinced that it's a real one-in-a-million shot.

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1 minute ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Toronto alone have already got more local interest in a couple of years than we've had over 40 years. Also, if they home produce people like Clubb/Sarginson etc they will have the money to keep them

Well they better get cracking because, as far as I’m aware, Toronto has yet to embark on any local rugby league player development programmes unless you count the short-lived TV publicity stunt to convert American footballers.

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2 hours ago, bbfaz said:

As I've said on here before, only a handful of players in American (and Canadian) Footballers ever learn the sort of transferable skills for Rugby League.  If you look at American Football pitching technique, it's risible nonsense that wouldn't cut it as a Rugby League pass.  Some roles are so specialised that, for instance, offensive linemen exist just to block.  You seldom see a quarterback punt and I don't think one has regularly kicked since George Blanda in the early 70s.  It's ridiculous language but they'd need to delearn to relearn.  Can you become an elite player if you've never even passed a ball properly until the age of 22?  I know Crusaders had some French kid who'd played in NFL Europe at one point but he didn't make it.

I convinced myself in the past it could be possible.  I'm now convinced that it's a real one-in-a-million shot.

It's a lot more than a handful of players in gridiron who have transferable skills, it's the half of them who play on defense.  They already have all the skills needed to play defense in RL, to do that they just need to adjust their defensive skills and game sense to our sport and boost their fitness to the needed level.    They could learn the offensive side of the game a lot more easily than offensive players could learn both that part of the game and how to play defense which they've never had to do.

Your criticisms are valid in respect of the offensive players, they would face a steep learning curve.

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To reiterate a point I’ve made before - most (virtually all) grow up playing both offense and defense. The elite players do it the most since you want your best athletes on the field as much as possible.

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4 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

In principle yes, but what do you do with all these 17 year olds who've never played Rugby league? There's no way they could even float in L1 straightaway let alone SL. They'll need at least 3 years of elite development, equivalent to a top tier UK academy. They won't be able to come over to the UK to do it (visas) , and criss-crossing the Atlantic like Wolfpack won't be viable for a youth team. So a NA academy network on a par with SL's will need to be set up. 

That's a huge financial commitment that will only pay off in the very long term. Actually NA is the one place it might work becasue of the sheer number of young athletes available but who's going to fund it, the cost will be in the millions. 

They will be able to come over to the UK and do it, the Academy would be linked and partnered to a further education establishment. Your right, The young players wouldn't get sportspersons visas because they aren't at the elite level (full time contract in tier 3 or above) , they'd be able to get education visas.

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Well they better get cracking because, as far as I’m aware, Toronto has yet to embark on any local rugby league player development programmes unless you count the short-lived TV publicity stunt to convert American footballers.

From little things big things grow..

http://www.georginagriffinsrlfc.ca/

 

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I don't think many really realise how difficult it is to develop homegrown talent in a sport unknown to the general populace. Look at football which has had huge money behind it in China for example. How many world class football players has China produced? And it is the most popular sport there! Canada may be able to host 2 or even 3 successful franchises but it will be a long time (decades) before they are really producing much homegrown talent. The best sporting example I can think of with a sport taking hold and a production line of world class players is field hockey in Belgium. Belgium went from being minnows to world champions in about 25 years. Canada isn't even a minnow in RL, it is basically non-existent. 

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Soccer and hockey are more weighted to skill, rugby (especially league) to athleticism. Plus you have RU players to draw from in Canada so it isn’t a blank slate. I think Fiji have drawn on quite a few RU players to get where they are.

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It's not going to happen unless there's a mass migration from 7s.

Even then they're not going to be as good as PNG, Fiji and Samoa. Possibly as good as Ireland or Wales.

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