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Due to the rise in anti vaccination garbage, we are seeing a rise in almost eradicated diseases.  It is worrying those at the top so much that they are considering mandatory vaccination, in 2019 how are we at this point?  A few loons in the past not vaccinating their kids only put themselves in danger, and the herd protected most.  Now we are seeing vaccinations dropping below the herd 'point' in various places.

It's in the USA, UK, Europe, etc.  

Andrew Wakefield is regarded highly by some and seems to be doing very well out of it, rather than the disgraced charlatan he should be.  

Populist movements are pushing it too, in Italy and Europe.  Katie Hopkins jumped on that bandwagon today.  Russia see's the anti vax movement as something to exploit (they don't care about the science, but see it as a disruptive issue that helps sow discord).  Trump has posted mixed messages on this too.  

Should we begin to ban kids without vaccination from schools?  Public spaces?  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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One thing I don't understand is why the NHS is not offering separate vaccinations for mumps, measles and rubella as was the case in my day if people do not want to sanction the combined MMR?  Instead of rigidly enforcing the MMR why not simply offer the single jabs for the children whose parents are scared?

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1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

One thing I don't understand is why the NHS is not offering separate vaccinations for mumps, measles and rubella as was the case in my day if people do not want to sanction the combined MMR?  Instead of rigidly enforcing the MMR why not simply offer the single jabs for the children whose parents are scared?

The NHS has a page about it. Their reasoning is pretty straightforward. There's no evidence that single jabs are safer than the combined jab and, to quote, "Having single vaccines could also put your child at risk of catching measles, mumps or rubella in the time between the doses of each of the vaccines."

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10 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

Andrew Wakefield is regarded highly by some ...

I personally know two very highly regarded consultants who think Wakefield was onto something. Not in the path he chose to go down, and certainly not in his stupid and illegal cavalier approach, but in some of the other implications from his work (not to do with vaccines).


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Make them compulsory 

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"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The NHS has a page about it. Their reasoning is pretty straightforward. There's no evidence that single jabs are safer than the combined jab and, to quote, "Having single vaccines could also put your child at risk of catching measles, mumps or rubella in the time between the doses of each of the vaccines."

But the original furore was about the MMR, the combined vaccination.  Surely it would have just been sensible to have offered the individual vaccinations when the issue first arose rather than push the MMR regardless of people's fears and by so doing allowing the situation we now have to develop?  As for the risk of catching disease between the doses, I don't know how that works given that the separate vaccinations used to be standard practice and the numbers for all three diseases reduced during that time.  

Personally I can't judge parents being unsure given the regular changes we see in scientific advice (about foods, drink, etc).  I'm a strong advocate of vaccinating, which is why I think the NHS was too rigid originally, but I can fully understand why some would be scared off.

And just in case people jump on me because I'm not sitting on a high horse on this topic, I have had measles - twice (before the vaccination was available).  It left me partially deaf in one ear.  So I know the consequences of not vaccinating (although in my day there wasn't an option) which is why my primary concern is vaccination either by individual jabs or the combined one rather than forcing what appears to be dogma on to fearful parents.

Edited by Saintslass

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29 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

But the original furore was about the MMR, the combined vaccination.  Surely it would have just been sensible to have offered the individual vaccinations when the issue first arose rather than push the MMR regardless of people's fears and by so doing allowing the situation we now have to develop?  As for the risk of catching disease between the doses, I don't know how that works given that the separate vaccinations used to be standard practice and the numbers for all three diseases reduced during that time.  

Personally I can't judge parents being unsure given the regular changes we see in scientific advice (about foods, drink, etc).  I'm a strong advocate of vaccinating, which is why I think the NHS was too rigid originally, but I can fully understand why some would be scared off.

And just in case people jump on me because I'm not sitting on a high horse on this topic, I have had measles - twice (before the vaccination was available).  It left me partially deaf in one ear.  So I know the consequences of not vaccinating (although in my day there wasn't an option) which is why my primary concern is vaccination either by individual jabs or the combined one rather than forcing what appears to be dogma on to fearful parents.

You make a reasonable point. 

It is worth considering that the scare was created to scare parents into a less safe vaccine regime, in co-operation with the national press. To actively reward this would be dangerous. It would also feed into the narrative of it being dangerous. 

As a scientist, I find it troubling that lying is an acceptable and permissible part of public discourse. I can see the reasons for it though. Nonetheless, limiting how much we reward it is, in my opinion, sensible. 


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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9 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

You make a reasonable point. 

It is worth considering that the scare was created to scare parents into a less safe vaccine regime, in co-operation with the national press. To actively reward this would be dangerous. It would also feed into the narrative of it being dangerous. 

As I remember it, the scare originated due to a now discredited scientific paper on links between the MMR and autism, rather than as some kind of conspiracy to push parents into a less safe vaccine regime.  Wasn't the original paper published in respected journals at the time?  I'm going off memory here and so I could be wrong about that.  I don't know how the claim was discredited but as with many things, mud sticks, and how the consequences of that mud sticking are dealt with is what is important IMO.  Fining people or banning children from school if they do not comply is not the answer.  All that will serve to do in my view is create further suspicion and add anger into the mix.

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Since the original Wakefield BS, the anti-vaccination idiots in the US have moved on from MMR to rubbishing vaccination full stop, claiming that it's a con by "Big Pharma" and saying they are poisoning kids with mercury.

The problem with pandering to the "single vaccinations" idea is that it is more expensive, less safe and lends credence to the idea that MMR isn't safe.

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"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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5 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Fining people or banning children from school if they do not comply is not the answer.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I'm not pandering to idiots about it. We're over a decade on from Wakefield's lies being fully revealed.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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4 minutes ago, tim2 said:

Since the original Wakefield BS, the anti-vaccination idiots in the US have moved on from MMR to rubbishing vaccination full stop, claiming that it's a con by "Big Pharma" and saying they are poisoning kids with mercury.

The problem with pandering to the "single vaccinations" idea is that it is more expensive, less safe and lends credence to the idea that MMR isn't safe.

Yup, kids getting tetanus, pockets of measles, etc.

Not just the USA, its a big issue in Italy, being pushed by one of the populist movements who are in government.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Also Wakefield was trying to get people to choose the single vaccine route as he was part owner in a company that did the single vaccine. I don’t see why we should help him be more profitable. 

 

Also the NHS is cash strapped enough as it is why was money pandering to idiots. 

For my 2p worth if your kids aren’t vaccinated they can’t go to school. 

Edited by RidingPie
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3 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

As I remember it, the scare originated due to a now discredited scientific paper on links between the MMR and autism, rather than as some kind of conspiracy to push parents into a less safe vaccine regime.  Wasn't the original paper published in respected journals at the time?  I'm going off memory here and so I could be wrong about that.  I don't know how the claim was discredited but as with many things, mud sticks, and how the consequences of that mud sticking are dealt with is what is important IMO.  Fining people or banning children from school if they do not comply is not the answer.  All that will serve to do in my view is create further suspicion and add anger into the mix.

It was a medical journal rather than a scientific paper. Had it been a scientist in a scientific journal, he would be in gaol  for fraud. That was motivated by him having a shareholding in the individual vaccines.  

It was immediately discredited and the scientific community (which I was in at the time) were pleading with the press not to publish an evidently false and dangerous piece of fraud that would result in dead babies, but it was a good story. Your memory is fine, who would report this. 

It marked a turning point, before that the British press was eager to communicate clearly, which was naive. 

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I'm not pandering to idiots about it. We're over a decade on from Wakefield's lies being fully revealed.

You are assuming there that all parents are fully conversant with how this thing got going and confident about who can be trusted.  As you say it is ten years ago now which means there will be many parents who have become parents in the decade since the scandal broke.  Unless they do research they will not necessarily know the source of their doubts; they will simply be unsure about what is the best thing to do.  They are not necessarily idiots and I do find it offensive that people are dismissed in such a way.  They could be justifiably worried and unsure as to what is the best thing to do.  After all, when a person is not a scientist themselves, how do they know which scientist or which authority to believe about something in the future?  Anyone with children knows how daunting making such decisions are.

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1 hour ago, tim2 said:

Since the original Wakefield BS, the anti-vaccination idiots in the US have moved on from MMR to rubbishing vaccination full stop, claiming that it's a con by "Big Pharma" and saying they are poisoning kids with mercury.

The problem with pandering to the "single vaccinations" idea is that it is more expensive, less safe and lends credence to the idea that MMR isn't safe.

The problem in the US is that big pharma does have a lot of clout and the health system there does indeed leave openings for big pharma to push products that are not necessarily the best for the patient so things can become muddied very quickly over there.  

If we bear in mind the authentic scandals in health - we are hearing about one at present over here with infected blood - is it any wonder really why some folk are unsure about what is the best thing to do?  How do they know that in, say, 20 years time the assertions now about MMR safety will be overturned just as other assertions over other medical products have been found over time to be harmful?  I'm not saying I agree with not having the MMR vaccination.  Rather, I am finding it easy to be sympathetic to the plight of those parents who are nervous about it, wherever in the world they are.

 

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1 hour ago, RidingPie said:

Also the NHS is cash strapped enough as it is why was money pandering to idiots. 

This is just so insulting.

I hope you are the perfect parent, who knows everything and is confident in all ways.

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4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I personally know two very highly regarded consultants who think Wakefield was onto something. Not in the path he chose to go down, and certainly not in his stupid and illegal cavalier approach, but in some of the other implications from his work (not to do with vaccines).

What was that?

I’ve been reading up on mitochondrial problems in children with autism spectrum disorders.   Was it related to that?

It’s not hard to see why people get drawn into a whole load of woo.   Once you start reading technical papers the language and concepts are bafflingly hard.  Mixed with an understandable desire to do the best by your kids, it’s a minefield.  It would be terrifyingly easy for a charlatan to lead you astray.


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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2 minutes ago, Steve May said:

What was that?

I’ve been reading up on mitochondrial problems in children with autism spectrum disorders.   Was it related to that?

Very broadly.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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30 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

The problem in the US is that big pharma does have a lot of clout and the health system there does indeed leave openings for big pharma to push products that are not necessarily the best for the patient so things can become muddied very quickly over there.  

If we bear in mind the authentic scandals in health - we are hearing about one at present over here with infected blood - is it any wonder really why some folk are unsure about what is the best thing to do?  How do they know that in, say, 20 years time the assertions now about MMR safety will be overturned just as other assertions over other medical products have been found over time to be harmful?  I'm not saying I agree with not having the MMR vaccination.  Rather, I am finding it easy to be sympathetic to the plight of those parents who are nervous about it, wherever in the world they are.

 

All I know is that kids are getting measles, which I don't need t tell you is bad news, and it's totally preventable.

 


"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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Just now, tim2 said:

All I know is that kids are getting measles, which I don't need t tell you is bad news, and it's totally preventable.

 

I couldn't agree more.

But we have to allay fears and encourage, not punish.  IMO obvs.

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13 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

But we have to allay fears and encourage,

The problem is, is that we are behind the curve on that one.  How can the government allay fears when the opposition are telling you that its the government who are covering this all up.  Throw in some populist politicians, a soupçon of Russia active measures, some youtube videos, and some woo, and you have a perfect storm where a government won't be believed.  Even with kids dropping down dead.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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46 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Very broadly.

That’s probably the limit of my knowledge then


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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7 minutes ago, Steve May said:

That’s probably the limit of my knowledge then

To be fair, I couldn't take it much further but it was, ultimately, to do with what now would be part of microbiome/brain research.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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I see the fragrant Katie Hopkins has jumped on the anti-vaxxer bandwagon “the herd is not your concern” Says a lot about her world view. 


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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1 hour ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

The problem is, is that we are behind the curve on that one.  How can the government allay fears when the opposition are telling you that its the government who are covering this all up.  Throw in some populist politicians, a soupçon of Russia active measures, some youtube videos, and some woo, and you have a perfect storm where a government won't be believed.  Even with kids dropping down dead.  

Who says it has to be the government who allay the fears?  

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