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John Rhino

Rather disappointing

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Robert Elstone after his visit to Toulouse is quoted in the i as saying "expansion feels to me more secure, more sustainable, where there is a natural affection for the game, where people watch the game and people understand the game".

Fine words, but the game was new to Toulouse in 1937 and people grew to love it over time as they got to watch and understand it. They are certainly watching in Toronto.

All new areas have to be nurtured to love the game: I find his view a bit insular and pessimistic. I had hoped for better 

 

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9 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

expansion feels to me more secure, more sustainable, where there is a natural affection for the game, where people watch the game and people understand the game"

I mean that quite literally isn't expansion is it? 

If they already have a natural affection, watch and understand the game already then we're not exactly growing anywhere are we. Lets put Hunslet up to Super League if that's the case!

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10 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

Robert Elstone after his visit to Toulouse is quoted in the i as saying "expansion feels to me more secure, more sustainable, where there is a natural affection for the game, where people watch the game and people understand the game".

Fine words, but the game was new to Toulouse in 1937 and people grew to love it over time as they got to watch and understand it. They are certainly watching in Toronto.

All new areas have to be nurtured to love the game: I find his view a bit insular and pessimistic. I had hoped for better 

 

He's effectively against expansion then really as if there a natural affection for the game in a certain area then it is going to be a heartland area already

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8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I mean that quite literally isn't expansion is it? 

If they already have a natural affection, watch and understand the game already then we're not exactly growing anywhere are we. Lets put Hunslet up to Super League if that's the case!

To be fair, Elstone's remit is SLE, so in the context of expanding the geographical footprint of the comp what he says makes sense.

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Catalans Dragons have built hugely on the original 1934 XIII Catalan club to become a kind of queen bee for treizistes in the region. 

Toulouse could do the same for the Occitan region.

That is expansion in my book.

Edited by Man of Kent
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What a strange comment. Does anyone have a link to place it in some context?

I understand being cautious about expanding too quickly or aggressively but you've got to take a chance with someone at some point otherwise you would be left with a fraction of those original clubs from the original split, many of whom now don't exist.

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Well Toulouse is probably more sustainable than Totonto right now. However, I am not aware that he has said we should not try new areas for Super League. As GS says, the context of this statement is important.

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Catalans Dragons have built hugely on the original 1934 XIII Catalan club to become a kind of queen bee for treizistes in the region. 

Toulouse could do the same for the Occitan region.

That is expansion in my book.

No that's consolidation at best. Though I hope TO get to SL.


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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

To be fair, Elstone's remit is SLE, so in the context of expanding the geographical footprint of the comp what he says makes sense.

no it's not Dave because it's not expanding the footprint of the game and as I said I want TO in SL but this is no more expansion than adding Cas.

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Just now, Oxford said:

no it's not Dave because it's not expanding the footprint of the game and as I said I want TO in SL but this is no more expansion than adding Cas.

Yes, Elstone's remit is absolutely Super League.

When we added Catalans that was expansion. We could focus on places where there is already interest in RL and over the next decade add Toulouse, Newcastle, take London seriously, maybe South Wales, Coventry and that would absolutely be SL expanding.

People want NRL expansion and Perth is often top of the list. 

I'm not a fan of Elstone particularly, but there isnt anything controversial in his view here.

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

When we added Catalans that was expansion

No not really Dave adding Catalans was a brilliant idea and proves itself year on year but describing it as "expansion" is like congratulating Brexit for unifying the country.


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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Catalans Dragons have built hugely on the original 1934 XIII Catalan club to become a kind of queen bee for treizistes in the region. 

Toulouse could do the same for the Occitan region.

That is expansion in my book.

It absolutely is expansion. As is Toronto. Elstone has been pretty consistent that he is cynical of TWP and a fan of Touluse etc. Its not a view I share, but it doesn't mean he is against expansion.

I personally get the impression he is pretty risk averse. When you listen to him talk about what he and Lindsay did at the start of SL with Paris I suspect that is where that comes from.

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9 minutes ago, Oxford said:

no it's not Dave because it's not expanding the footprint of the game and as I said I want TO in SL but this is no more expansion than adding Cas.

The RFL/SLE comp didnt have a French presence when Catalans were admitted. That absolutely expanded the footprint of the comp.

Expansion doesn't always mean starting from scratch. It can be capitalising on some potential and foundations.

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It absolutely is expansion. As is Toronto. Elstone has been pretty consistent that he is cynical of TWP and a fan of Touluse etc. Its not a view I share, but it doesn't mean he is against expansion.

I personally get the impression he is pretty risk averse. When you listen to him talk about what he and Lindsay did at the start of SL with Paris I suspect that is where that comes from.

TWP increases the footprint of the sport which is expansion.

Increasing the footpint of a competition from within the sport's confines is consolidation.

Edited by Oxford
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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Expansion doesn't always mean starting from scratch. It can be capitalising on some potential and foundations.

No it doesn't mean just starting from scratch and potential and foundations can help but they have to be somewhere where the sport has a fairly recent historical and geographical presence this is not the case in Toulouse anymore that it would be if it was village between Fev and Keighley presented as a new club.


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30 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Eh?

It's very simple MoK the sport doesn't grow if it includes an established area in one part of its set of competitions. Toulouse was already part of the TGG World.

Next we'll be calling the inclusion of Irlam enlargement of the game.

Edited by Oxford
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1 minute ago, Oxford said:

It's very simple MoK the sport doesn't grow if it includes an established area in one part of its set of competitions. Toulouse was already part of the TGG World.

You must have a tiny-minded definition of growth to believe that.

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38 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Eh?

Well I tried

 

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

You must have a tiny-minded definition of growth to believe that.

noun

mass noun

  • 1The action of becoming larger or more extensive.

i e not Toulouse.


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4 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Well I tried

 

noun

mass noun

  • 1The action of becoming larger or more extensive.

i e not Toulouse.

 
dim
/dɪm/
adjective
INFORMAL
stupid or slow to understand.
"you're just incredibly dim"
 
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I think the problem is that "expansion" and its definition changes as to what is suitable for whatever argument someone is making. 

Oxford is right in that promoting Toulouse isn't really expansion, they were founded in 1937. Its hard to see that as the game going somewhere new. 

There is the other side that sees them as an expansion side simply because they aren't based along the M62 or in Cumbria. You see similar with London and Sheffield, clubs founded in 1980 and 84 respectively still somehow being expansion clubs. They are nigh on 40 years old. It really isn't the game somewhere new. 

Expansion has to be about expanding the game, getting it played and watched and attended in new places. Toulouse are a great club and may very well be a great strategic fit for super league and how it can grow its European presence and the game here and abroad. However what it isn't, is expansion. 

If Elstone's plan for expansion is to go where "there is a natural affection for the game, where they people watch the game and understand it" then this is it. This is the total of where we can and will go. All we can do is move the pieces around. There will never be any new because we will only go where the game already exists now.

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12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

There will never be any new because we will only go where the game already exists now.

Well you tried!


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As Oxford and Scotchy have alluded to, in reality, Toulouse is more of a reclaim for the game. This is more of a natural regrowth for the sport.

Perhaps we have become too used to thinking of our sport as belonging to a heartland that only existed in the minds of those when it was at it's lowest ebb, at club level, during the 1960's and 70's.

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16 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:
 
dim
/dɪm/
adjective
INFORMAL
stupid or slow to understand.
"you're just incredibly dim"
 

How kind of you to say so MoK.

Notice no reciprocal insult, name calling or anything else of that ilk.


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