Halifax RLFC vs Widnes Vikings

[Maximus Decimus]

Arrogance of the highest order, you have outdone yourself here, well done.

FYI, BARROW had several Barrow born raised & schooled in RL lads in our 1st team yesterday & they all did rather well dont you think ?.

Grow up Mick. You know full well that what Super League classes as a youth policy amounts to far more than what you're suggesting.

How are Barrow doing in the U18's Super League Academy?

Just because you dislike the truth doesn't change it.

[Maximus Decimus]

Just checked - they dont count on the cap

7.3 Costs for those players under 21 who are eligible to play in the academy teams are to be

excluded from the Salary Cap Qualifying Costs. For the avoidance of doubt, this means

players need to be under 21 years of age on August 31st in the year prior to the Salary Cap

Year in question.

Good point but it also says 'those who are eligible to play in the Academy,' there may be a fair few who are home grown but aren't.

I don't want to focus too much on the playing side of things because it is not what licensing is about. The point is that it is too easy to point to a team doing well in the league and say that means they deserve to be in. There are many other factors under licensing. Aside from the fact that Widnes have had no coach for a large portion of this year and have had key players out, we have also been clearly trying to get more club trained players in the squad and playing in the team. This is what licensing is supposed to be about. No other club in the division has focussed on this in the same way and are only recently been trying to rectify it whereas Widnes have been doing it since the last round of franchising.

If it wasn't about being awarded licenses then priorities would be different. As often happens the club with the biggest and best resources inevitably gets promoted over a short period of time. Why would Widnes bother spending big on going all out to win the Championship when it adds almost nothing to our bid. I don't think for a second we thought we'd miss the playoffs but we wanted to be in the mix and the squad we had should have enabled that.

Widnes can't be blamed for playing the game the way the RFL asked, tick a box on the field and spend the rest getting off the field right. Many on here seem to think this is somehow Widnes fault or that we should be punished for not finishing high enough. Once again this is not what licensing is about, it might stink and it might be killing the Championship as a competition but that is not Widnes' fault.

[a.n Other]

Good point but it also says 'those who are eligible to play in the Academy,' there may be a fair few who are home grown but aren't.

I don't want to focus too much on the playing side of things because it is not what licensing is about. The point is that it is too easy to point to a team doing well in the league and say that means they deserve to be in. There are many other factors under licensing. Aside from the fact that Widnes have had no coach for a large portion of this year and have had key players out, we have also been clearly trying to get more club trained players in the squad and playing in the team. This is what licensing is supposed to be about. No other club in the division has focussed on this in the same way and are only recently been trying to rectify it whereas Widnes have been doing it since the last round of franchising.

If it wasn't about being awarded licenses then priorities would be different. As often happens the club with the biggest and best resources inevitably gets promoted over a short period of time. Why would Widnes bother spending big on going all out to win the Championship when it adds almost nothing to our bid. I don't think for a second we thought we'd miss the playoffs but we wanted to be in the mix and the squad we had should have enabled that.

Widnes can't be blamed for playing the game the way the RFL asked, tick a box on the field and spend the rest getting off the field right. Many on here seem to think this is somehow Widnes fault or that we should be punished for not finishing high enough. Once again this is not what licensing is about, it might stink and it might be killing the Championship as a competition but that is not Widnes' fault.

Cant argue with a lot of that. But salary cap wise, i would be suprised if you werent up to the cap, so i dont see that as saving money or not spending big could be wrong though.

As for what the RFL want for licences, the only thing i can see where it has been confirmed what they are potentially looking for is the following from the SL website

"The RFL has already started planning for the next licence period and has been working with Super League and Championship clubs to agree minimum standards in five key areas: Business Management, Facilities, Finance, Commercial/Marketing/Community and Playing Strength/Performance.

Gary Tasker added:

Edited August 2, 2010 by a.n Other

[Maximus Decimus]

Cant argue with a lot of that. But salary cap wise, i would be suprised if you werent up to the cap, so i dont see that as saving money or not spending big could be wrong though.

As for what the RFL want for licences, the only thing i can see where it has been confirmed what they are potentially looking for is the following from the SL website

"The RFL has already started planning for the next licence period and has been working with Super League and Championship clubs to agree minimum standards in five key areas: Business Management, Facilities, Finance, Commercial/Marketing/Community and Playing Strength/Performance.

Gary Tasker added:

[Lobbygobbler]

I'd assume so.

If you look at their summations from the last round of licensing you can see how prominently youth development figures, especially under club-trained rules. Almost all clubs under discussion were told they would need to improve their youth development to get it to a Super League level, including Widnes. We now have the 8 club trained players and an Academy system that surely would be classed as Super League standard, we are the only Championship club that runs teams at all levels and at the highest level U18's

Max - I can see what you are saying, but the only reason you can run all these youth teams is because you have a sugar daddy. This was something that has been used in argument against Des (not sure of sirname) at Barrow

Also I seem to remember that Leigh had one of these academy U18's a couple of years ago, but were not allowed to play against the likes of Wigan, Saints etc U18's. Not sure what the situation is now (maybe amh knows)

I've nothing against Widnes, though ever since the last knobhead franchising decision, I feel it was nailed on for them to get the next vote regardless of on-the-pitch accolades from other clubs. IMO it would have been better if there had been a points system for on-the-pitch successes which I've posted in other threads. The other off-the-pitch things could have been secondary requirements

The problem now I feel, is that the other clubs bar Widnes perhaps don't want to spend considerable amounts of cash on academies if they aren't going to get a licence. Really sky money should fund every club in NL1 to have a full time acaedmy, then at least everyone would be on the same playing field. Alas now we are relying on sugar daddies

[amm]

Also I seem to remember that Leigh had one of these academy U18's a couple of years ago, but were not allowed to play against the likes of Wigan, Saints etc U18's. Not sure what the situation is now (maybe amh knows)

I don't to be honest. I know they disbanded them when we didn't get into SL because we couldn't afford them (2003) and I'm sorry to say I've no clue after that. It seems we rely heavily on the set ups at Miners & Easts, plus we have a link with Wigan & Leigh college where males 16- 19 can join their academy and have coaching from Leigh staff and gain alevel 1 coaching certificate

We need someone who actually knows to comment eg LeytherMatt , DemonUK or AlanE

[Bulletproof]

Max - I can see what you are saying, but the only reason you can run all these youth teams is because you have a sugar daddy. This was something that has been used in argument against Des (not sure of sirname) at Barrow

We were running an academy before SOC came along though. We've been running one for years. Admittedly we've not always pushed our youngsters on to the scene as successfully as we can now but they have been there.

I've nothing against Widnes, though ever since the last knobhead franchising decision, I feel it was nailed on for them to get the next vote regardless of on-the-pitch accolades from other clubs. IMO it would have been better if there had been a points system for on-the-pitch successes which I've posted in other threads. The other off-the-pitch things could have been secondary requirements

If you've nothing against Widnes why have successive postings been about how every other team seems to be more suitable for promotion. One day, you said Barrow were nailed on, two days later, you said Halifax were dead certs. It seems to be every team other than the team with the biggest crowds and best set up. We were always going to suffer on the pitch this year blooding youth players, but we've been significantly weakened by a prolongued and difficult injury crisis the likes of which I've never seen at the club. People forget that, for large portions of the season we were without 7 or 8 players, two matches or so there were almost enough to field a seperate team. Emergency loan signings are all very well and good but if the team cannot settle and players cannot get used to one another your form is bound to suffer. Had we had better luck with injuries we would be far more comfortable than we are now. People conveniently leave this out when discussing future licenses. The whole point of the process, which not all of us agree with, but the only point of it is to make sure the club going up is the best placed and the one going down is the weakest. That things like temporary form issues are put on a back burner for things like overall strength.

[Maximus Decimus]

Max - I can see what you are saying, but the only reason you can run all these youth teams is because you have a sugar daddy. This was something that has been used in argument against Des (not sure of sirname) at Barrow

Also I seem to remember that Leigh had one of these academy U18's a couple of years ago, but were not allowed to play against the likes of Wigan, Saints etc U18's. Not sure what the situation is now (maybe amh knows)

I've nothing against Widnes, though ever since the last knobhead franchising decision, I feel it was nailed on for them to get the next vote regardless of on-the-pitch accolades from other clubs. IMO it would have been better if there had been a points system for on-the-pitch successes which I've posted in other threads. The other off-the-pitch things could have been secondary requirements

The problem now I feel, is that the other clubs bar Widnes perhaps don't want to spend considerable amounts of cash on academies if they aren't going to get a licence. Really sky money should fund every club in NL1 to have a full time acaedmy, then at least everyone would be on the same playing field. Alas now we are relying on sugar daddies

This is an over-simplification I feel and does a diservice to the club to say we are reliant on a sugar daddy. Without him we still get the biggest crowds and have the joint best ground. We also made the best stab of Super League out of any of the current championship clubs. Let's not forget that we were one game away on two occasions from being a Super League club and had we won either of those we would be a shoe in for a continued SL license. This is all without Steve O'Connor. At the same time you have a club like Wakefield who have been one game away from relegation and probable permanent SL exclusion. That is how fine a line Widnes were from being a permanent member of SL, no other Championship clubs were in this situation.

Therefore it's unfair to put all of Widnes' reasons for inclusion on a sugar daddy. Barrow are a different matter, their success is largely built on a sugar daddy, one who has made comments that don't make him seem reliable. Plus despite his money Barrow still haven't many other boxes ticked.

[Maximus Decimus]

Triple post!

Edited August 2, 2010 by Maximus Decimus

[Maximus Decimus]

Max - I can see what you are saying, but the only reason you can run all these youth teams is because you have a sugar daddy. This was something that has been used in argument against Des (not sure of sirname) at Barrow

Also I seem to remember that Leigh had one of these academy U18's a couple of years ago, but were not allowed to play against the likes of Wigan, Saints etc U18's. Not sure what the situation is now (maybe amh knows)

I've nothing against Widnes, though ever since the last knobhead franchising decision, I feel it was nailed on for them to get the next vote regardless of on-the-pitch accolades from other clubs. IMO it would have been better if there had been a points system for on-the-pitch successes which I've posted in other threads. The other off-the-pitch things could have been secondary requirements

The problem now I feel, is that the other clubs bar Widnes perhaps don't want to spend considerable amounts of cash on academies if they aren't going to get a licence. Really sky money should fund every club in NL1 to have a full time acaedmy, then at least everyone would be on the same playing field. Alas now we are relying on sugar daddies

This is an over-simplification I feel and does a diservice to the club to say we are reliant on a sugar daddy. Without him we still get the biggest crowds and have the joint best ground. We also made the best stab of Super League out of any of the current championship clubs. Let's not forget that we were one game away on two occasions from being a Super League club and had we won either of those we would be a shoe in for a continued SL license. This is all without Steve O'Connor. At the same time you have a club like Wakefield who have been one game away from relegation and probable permanent SL exclusion. That is how fine a line Widnes were from being a permanent member of SL, no other Championship clubs were in this situation.

Therefore it's unfair to put all of Widnes' reasons for inclusion on a sugar daddy. Barrow are a different matter, their success is largely built on a sugar daddy, one who has made comments that don't make him seem reliable. Plus despite his money Barrow still haven't many other boxes ticked.

[Bomb Jack]

That things like temporary form issues are put on a back burner for things like overall strength.

Fans of other Clubs don't see that though.

All they see is us struggling this season, and say we shouldn't get a Licence because of it.

[Bulletproof]

Fans of other Clubs don't see that though.

All they see is us struggling this season, and say we shouldn't get a Licence because of it.

Yep. The thing is, under the old system, they'd have a point. But we're not under the old system, and we're merely working as best we can within the current system to ensure we progress. We'd have been better off on the pitch had we not had our injury list but c'est la vie. We're the club building for the future the most when others are spending on squads to build purely for the present.

[tim2]

Yep. The thing is, under the old system, they'd have a point. But we're not under the old system, and we're merely working as best we can within the current system to ensure we progress. We'd have been better off on the pitch had we not had our injury list but c'est la vie. We're the club building for the future the most when others are spending on squads to build purely for the present.

Correct. The point is, if you had Featherstone's squad, and coach, and were sitting 9 points clear at the top, you'd still have to change 80% of your squad to be competitive in SL. The longer term view of investing in youth and having good facilities and supporter base is much more important.

[mick wilson]

Other people might get away with saying this, but other people don't consistently attack us and run our club down whilst talking up theirs. In other words, shut up and stop being a massive hypocrite. Responding to your twaddle does not constitute to having a massive ego and/or a superiority complex. Putting teams down whilst being blind to the fault of yours, as you have in the posts just behind mine does.

Honestly Mick, besides being a liar, your also particularly dumb on occasion.

Why are you soooooooo hostile all the time ?

Show me these posts where im constently attacking your club , running it down while talking mine up, this is a Widnes condition, I merely respond to widnes fans superiority complex issues , This is what really gets to you isnt it !!!! admit it as its plainly obvious to readers of this forum.

You really should judge your self sir, you like to use words like hypocrite, dare I suggest you think of its true meaning when reading or posing your statements on here. good day to you squire.

[marklaspalmas]

Correct. The point is, if you had Featherstone's squad, and coach, and were sitting 9 points clear at the top, you'd still have to change 80% of your squad to be competitive in SL. The longer term view of investing in youth and having good facilities and supporter base is much more important.

Fev are doing both. Putting a top team out on the field and devloping the future. Why don't Widnes? If they've got such a strong backer, they should be able to do a lot better than 8th. They give the impression that they're sitting back and don't care, assuming the license is in the bag. This discredits the comp. they are in.

[mick wilson]

Mick, you don't live in khatmandu. And pointing out the flaws in your club does not bode well for you. These problems will also occur if you were in super league. It isn't a plus point in your favour pointing out the difficulty you have attracting and paying your players fairly. If you're living in a backwater, just live to your means. We'd be best off planning for a future in a centre of population like Newcastle. Despite these obviously crippling issues, you have managed to win the league recently and featured a squad containing the likes of Jamie Rooney. The facts laid out to you regarding our youngsters counting on the cap have been largely ignored and turned into some bizarre reverse whinge.

Lie. We have been in admin once, due to a crooked owner which could have leeched himself onto anyone. The fact that we had multiple credible bids for our club after he left us in dire straits speaks volumes. We have the largest crowds in the division, and a relatively low salary cap with which to work in, and a new owner with a better sense of morals. This is a completely irrelevant divergence you have taken us on and a false one at that.

A staggering bit of idiocy.

Please explain to the board how we benefitted from administration by getting a stadium built 10 years earlier than it happened, before we were involved with Mr Vaughn, before we even qualified for super league? Hell, explain the workings of its finances and how it was dodgy. Please, go into detail. You surely can't leave this on such a compelling, vague point. Explain, liar. Did it enable us to build a time machine? You don't half talk some ######.

By the way, droning on and on about widnes fans "crowing" becomes slightly less impacted when you do it repeatedly yourself and with no provocation.

Absolutely. In fact as we're ignoring due process and all the hard work clubs have taken to ensure they are fully in accordance with RFL policy, why not chuck Moghadishu a license? It would create such a buzz and builr up rugby league n their region, give them a shot. In fact, ###### that. Chuck a dart at a world map and see where it lands. Licensing by guessing. It works so well!

Me, me, me, me, me !!!

Can you not read I was talking about Fax here also, & some parts of my posts were ( in gerneral ) about the game , maybe I should have been more clear ( my apoligies )

Your such a victim arnt you christ what is it with sections of your support and Merseyside folk !!!! perenial victimitus

[mick wilson]

Fev are doing both. Putting a top team out on the field and devloping the future. Why don't Widnes? If they've got such a strong backer, they should be able to do a lot better than 8th. They give the impression that they're sitting back and don't care, assuming the license is in the bag. This discredits the comp. they are in.

Fev 4 SL

[Bulletproof]

Why are you soooooooo hostile all the time ?

Show me these posts where im constently attacking your club , running it down while talking mine up, this is a Widnes condition, I merely respond to widnes fans superiority complex issues , This is what really gets to you isnt it !!!! admit it as its plainly obvious to readers of this forum.

You really should judge your self sir, you like to use words like hypocrite, dare I suggest you think of its true meaning when reading or posing your statements on here. good day to you squire.

I've already shown you these posts. It's not my fault you ignore them. Get a grip and grow up Mick.

[Lobbygobbler]

Yep. The thing is, under the old system, they'd have a point. But we're not under the old system, and we're merely working as best we can within the current system to ensure we progress. We'd have been better off on the pitch had we not had our injury list but c'est la vie. We're the club building for the future the most when others are spending on squads to build purely for the present.

Some clubs still need to tick the "on-field" box (i.e. Fev, Leigh) before heavy investment in an academy set-up otherwise it could be perceived as wasted money.

However even if we did, what average crowds would we have to average to topple Widnes? (5k?)

[Bulletproof]

Fev are doing both. Putting a top team out on the field and devloping the future. Why don't Widnes? If they've got such a strong backer, they should be able to do a lot better than 8th. They give the impression that they're sitting back and don't care, assuming the license is in the bag. This discredits the comp. they are in.

How are they developing for the future?

Like I've said, give them our injury list this season and see how they do then. It's not that simple. Fev are no where near ready for SL.

[Lobbygobbler]

How are they developing for the future?

Like I've said, give them our injury list this season and see how they do then. It's not that simple. Fev are no where near ready for SL.

they'd probably still do better than Widnes

You might argue that Widnes results show they are nowhere near ready for SL.

At the end of the day the current on-the-pitch assessment in that you only need to win one NRC to get considered is a joke, as it does not encourage going full steam ahead into SL

Best team on the pitch over the 3 years should be the ones promoted, as long as they can prove that they can make the necessary tweaks in their stay in SL. I think you'll find that if this had been the rule, that the club going up would have sorted itself out before going up. For a start a club going up with the momentum as the best team would have much bigger crowds than if it were potentially going up with a great deal of uncertainty

[marklaspalmas]

How are they developing for the future?

Like I've said, give them our injury list this season and see how they do then. It's not that simple. Fev are no where near ready for SL.

Errr... our U15 scholarship team? Our U16 scholarship team? Our U18 Academy liason team with Fev Lions? Our U20 Reserve team? Our second to none community programme? Our future stadium and ground devlopment plans?

[marklaspalmas]

Some clubs still need to tick the "on-field" box (i.e. Fev, Leigh) before heavy investment in an academy set-up otherwise it could be perceived as wasted money.

Lobby, what have you just typed? Clubs dont run academies to tick a stupid box. They do it for the future of the club. It's where players come from before they run out for the first team, y'know?

[Bulletproof]

they'd probably still do better than Widnes

You might argue that Widnes results show they are nowhere near ready for SL.

At the end of the day the current on-the-pitch assessment in that you only need to win one NRC to get considered is a joke, as it does not encourage going full steam ahead into SL

Best team on the pitch over the 3 years should be the ones promoted, as long as they can prove that they can make the necessary tweaks in their stay in SL. I think you'll find that if this had been the rule, that the club going up would have sorted itself out before going up. For a start a club going up with the momentum as the best team would have much bigger crowds than if it were potentially going up with a great deal of uncertainty

But if this was the case Widnes would have spent more on the squad than we have! We are working within the current system the best we can! And what part of injury list is ambiguous to you? Honestly.

No club in this division is ever ever going to make the step up to super league without significantly altering their squad. Current form has little to do with it.

"I think you'll find if this had been the rule." I think I'm going to stop you there. It isn't. If it had been, things would have been very different for all clubs. You're arguing against us using things that aren't the case but you think should be.

The only point of three year licensing is to take current form out of the equation. Otherwise, you might as well go back to P & R. The three year average thing is a red herring on your part.

[marklaspalmas]

Everyone gets injuries. It is, and always has been a rubbish excuse for being ######.