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Nicola Sturgeon vs Theresa May


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Reading this story,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/24/theresa-may-warns-nicola-sturgeon-against-undermining-brexit-as/

My initial reaction was to side with Nicola Sturgeon.  However, it does occur to me that it is very much in the political interests of the SNP to give the impression of a hard Brexit being imposed by London on an unwilling Scotland.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Reading this story,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/24/theresa-may-warns-nicola-sturgeon-against-undermining-brexit-as/

My initial reaction was to side with Nicola Sturgeon.  However, it does occur to me that it is very much in the political interests of the SNP to give the impression of a hard Brexit being imposed by London on an unwilling Scotland.

The SNP's view has been quite consistent.  A key point of the No campaign in the Scottish independence referendum was that only the union could keep Scotland in the EU.  That point actually did have an impact, whether enough to tip the scales is up for debate.  The SNP say that now that Scotland is being taken out of the EU against its will that it should have another say on independence.

 

The cynical side of me wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit of mutual egging-on going on as their current stances further both of their parties' aims.  The Tories without Scotland would be a near permanent political force.  Scotland with the Tories in power just winds up the majority of Scots no end and furthers the independence cause.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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Understand Scottish Government looking at EFTA membership for Scotland as one "flexible Brexit" proposal to be put forward in coming weeks

With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Understand Scottish Government looking at EFTA membership for Scotland as one "flexible Brexit" proposal to be put forward in coming weeks

 

Clearly, this is not feasible.  I agree with everything Ckn writes, however the EFTA kite will inevitably be shot down and suggest that such a thing was feasible even though she knows it is not (a bit like Boris Johnson with Brexit).

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Spain would never tolerate Scotland getting any special status.  They'd veto any proposals.

 

Sturgeon needs to be careful or else she may end up looking as if she is actually doing what it was suggested to her that she was doing - namely, undermining everything. 

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I think EFTA membership would be a much better choice than EU membership for an independent Scotland because:

A. They could still trade with the UK

B. They wouldn't have to join the Euro

C. They could regain control of fishing policy

A UK or EU referendum would fail as 1/3 of SNP voters oppose the EU. On the other hand Scottish Euroscepticism often is based more on fishing and agricultural policy than on immigration (given how empty most of Scotland is) so EFTA membership would make a workable solution. They'd also be a natural fit with Norway and Iceland

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What frustrates me about Nicola Sturgeon is that she never seems to be adequately challenged about her claims.

 

She is capable of talking absolute rubbish, but the BBC doesn't pick her up on some of her crazier ideas and tends to report them in tones of almost hushed reverence.

 

Her comments after meeting with Theresa May and the other devolved leaders are a case in point.

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What frustrates me about Nicola Sturgeon is that she never seems to be adequately challenged about her claims.

 

She is capable of talking absolute rubbish, but the BBC doesn't pick her up on some of her crazier ideas and tends to report them in tones of almost hushed reverence.

 

Her comments after meeting with Theresa May and the other devolved leaders are a case in point.

She is the only one to report the meeting as 'frustrating'.  I would suggest it either wasn't frustrating to her at all but she decided to take that line to keep her followers on board or she was frustrated because she wants everything her own way and is indeed seeking to undermine a unified UK wide approach to brexit for the benefit of the whole of the UK instead of her little pseudo queendom.

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instead of her little pseudo queendom.

 

And that is exactly why a lot of Scots at best distrust the English.

 

So if they disagree with us (and they did, with a majority much greater than the one by which Brexit claims an all-conquering mandate) they should just shut up and do what we tell them in the cause of "unity"?

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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And that is exactly why a lot of Scots at best distrust the English.

 

So if they disagree with us (and they did, with a majority much greater than the one by which Brexit claims an all-conquering mandate) they should just shut up and do what we tell them in the cause of "unity"?

 

No one is expecting her to shut up, and she clearly won't shut up.

 

But we are entitled to see her held to the same standards of accountability as all other politicians.

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What frustrates me about Nicola Sturgeon is that she never seems to be adequately challenged about her claims.

She is capable of talking absolute rubbish, but the BBC doesn't pick her up on some of her crazier ideas and tends to report them in tones of almost hushed reverence.

Her comments after meeting with Theresa May and the other devolved leaders are a case in point.

By extension nobody ever seems to ask her about three 2/5 of voting scots that voted leave. She gets far too easy a ride for me.

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And that is exactly why a lot of Scots at best distrust the English.

 

So if they disagree with us (and they did, with a majority much greater than the one by which Brexit claims an all-conquering mandate) they should just shut up and do what we tell them in the cause of "unity"?

I think you need to check your numbers.

The overall Brexit majority was 1.269M (of which the majority in England was 1.921M), where as the Scots majority for staying was only 642K.

 

Sturgeon hardly has the crushing mandate she claims when over a million Scots voted to leave the EU.

 

Also regarding her popularity nationally, the SNP only got 4.7% of the national vote at the last GE, less than the Tories, Labour, UKIP and the LibDems, and only just above the Greens. 

 

Sturgeon thinks she's something more than she actually is. She's too arrogant to acknowledge that she's the leader of a minority party, representing a minority region who has a very small majority of the national popular vote.

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

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I think you need to check your numbers.

The overall Brexit majority was 1.269M (of which the majority in England was 1.921M), where as the Scots majority for staying was only 642K.

 

Sturgeon hardly has the crushing mandate she claims when over a million Scots voted to leave the EU.

 

Also regarding her popularity nationally, the SNP only got 4.7% of the national vote at the last GE, less than the Tories, Labour, UKIP and the LibDems, and only just above the Greens. 

 

Sturgeon thinks she's something more than she actually is. She's too arrogant to acknowledge that she's the leader of a minority party, representing a minority region who has a very small majority of the national popular vote.

And a disproportionate say in the House of Commons

Ron Banks

Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow

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And a disproportionate say in the House of Commons

I'm sure that it would please you, ST and Ms Sturgeon if she got her way and Scotland become fully independent. That way the SNP wouldn't have any seats in Westminster.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I think you need to check your numbers.

The overall Brexit majority was 1.269M (of which the majority in England was 1.921M), where as the Scots majority for staying was only 642K.

 

Sturgeon hardly has the crushing mandate she claims when over a million Scots voted to leave the EU.

 

Also regarding her popularity nationally, the SNP only got 4.7% of the national vote at the last GE, less than the Tories, Labour, UKIP and the LibDems, and only just above the Greens. 

 

Sturgeon thinks she's something more than she actually is. She's too arrogant to acknowledge that she's the leader of a minority party, representing a minority region who has a very small majority of the national popular vote.

 

I meant in percentage terms. I understand that Scotland is smaller than England. As do the Scots, as we've proved time and time again since the 1970s when the SNP had its previous high water mark and have taken them for granted or patronised them ever since. 

 

Of course her definition of "nationally" is different to yours - they obviously only stood in Scottish constituencies.

 

As each day passes the chances of Scotland leaving the UK increases - English politicians are assuming either that its all bluster and they won't go through with it or they actually don't care.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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And a disproportionate say in the House of Commons

 

I'm looking forward to Brexit supporters demanding PR on the back of their new found faith in direct democracy.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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I meant in percentage terms. I understand that Scotland is smaller than England. As do the Scots, as we've proved time and time again since the 1970s when the SNP had its previous high water mark and have taken them for granted or patronised them ever since. 

 

Of course her definition of "nationally" is different to yours - they obviously only stood in Scottish constituencies.

 

As each day passes the chances of Scotland leaving the UK increases - English politicians are assuming either that its all bluster and they won't go through with it or they actually don't care.

Really ? are you sure your not mixing SNP hype with reality here

Sturgeon would like you to think that's what will happen, in fact she relies on it in order to maintain her control. However the last time the decision was put to the people of Scotland they voted overwhelmingly to stay in the UK, and they knew then a Brexit referendum was coming as some point in the near future.

 

The only indication that the Scottish people's opinions have shifted towards wanting to leave the UK is the endless stream on nationalist rhetoric coming from Sturgeon.

The number of Scottish people who voted for an independent Scotland is almost identical to the number who voted to remain (just over 1.6M), which shows the SNP have a core support for their cause. However 1.6m is far from enough to get them independence, realistically they need to find another 1/2M votes from somewhere to get the level of support they need to carry out their threat of leaving, that's even assuming they ever get a 2nd referendum as May has made it clear that she has no interest in going down that route. Even if she did it wouldn't be before we Brexit anyway.

An independent Scotland outside the EU leaves them in an extremely precarious position as a tiny, oil based economy almost entirely reliant on the rest of the UK for trade. Britain's economy is strong enough to survive leaving the EU (regardless of your opinion of the relative benefits or damage). Scotland's economy almost certainly isn't strong enough to survive on its own. Without a high oil price they don't have the finance to support themselves (not at their current standard of living anyway) and nor do they have the money or resources to set themselves up as a strong trading nation globally. 

 

I think May and the rest of the MP's in Westminster know its all bluster from Sturgeon because she has little chance of going through with her threats. May is playing nicely and in public at least pandering to Sturgeon's demands, but she knows she holds all the cards knowing if Sturgeon tried to play hard ball she would certainly lose.

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

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Really ? are you sure your not mixing SNP hype with reality here

Sturgeon would like you to think that's what will happen, in fact she relies on it in order to maintain her control. However the last time the decision was put to the people of Scotland they voted overwhelmingly to stay in the UK, and they knew then a Brexit referendum was coming as some point in the near future.

 

The only indication that the Scottish people's opinions have shifted towards wanting to leave the UK is the endless stream on nationalist rhetoric coming from Sturgeon.

The number of Scottish people who voted for an independent Scotland is almost identical to the number who voted to remain (just over 1.6M), which shows the SNP have a core support for their cause. However 1.6m is far from enough to get them independence, realistically they need to find another 1/2M votes from somewhere to get the level of support they need to carry out their threat of leaving, that's even assuming they ever get a 2nd referendum as May has made it clear that she has no interest in going down that route. Even if she did it wouldn't be before we Brexit anyway.

An independent Scotland outside the EU leaves them in an extremely precarious position as a tiny, oil based economy almost entirely reliant on the rest of the UK for trade. Britain's economy is strong enough to survive leaving the EU (regardless of your opinion of the relative benefits or damage). Scotland's economy almost certainly isn't strong enough to survive on its own. Without a high oil price they don't have the finance to support themselves (not at their current standard of living anyway) and nor do they have the money or resources to set themselves up as a strong trading nation globally. 

 

I think May and the rest of the MP's in Westminster know its all bluster from Sturgeon because she has little chance of going through with her threats. May is playing nicely and in public at least pandering to Sturgeon's demands, but she knows she holds all the cards knowing if Sturgeon tried to play hard ball she would certainly lose.

 

I said earlier that the BBC don't seem to adequately question the inconsistencies in many of Nicola Sturgeon's arguments.

 

Perhaps you should get a job on the Today programme on Radio 4.

 

You would certainly be more effective than those who are on there currently.

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What frustrates me about Nicola Sturgeon is that she never seems to be adequately challenged about her claims.

 

She is capable of talking absolute rubbish, but the BBC doesn't pick her up on some of her crazier ideas and tends to report them in tones of almost hushed reverence.

 

Her comments after meeting with Theresa May and the other devolved leaders are a case in point.

 

Martyn I don't necessarily disagree with you (she does get an easy ride with the BBC), why do you think she gets an easy ride with the rest of the media, since the BBC, while undoubtedly big, isn't the whole British media by any means. 

 

I'm always surprised she doesn't get a rougher ride in the rest.

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And that is exactly why a lot of Scots at best distrust the English.

 

So if they disagree with us (and they did, with a majority much greater than the one by which Brexit claims an all-conquering mandate) they should just shut up and do what we tell them in the cause of "unity"?

I'm not bothered whether the Scots distrust the English or not, frankly. 

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I'm not bothered whether the Scots distrust the English or not, frankly. 

 

I know a lot of people who agree with you. I wonder if the Tories are hanging on to Scotland for nostalgia reasons. Labour would certainly be in even worse trouble in a rump UK so it's easy to see why they don't want to separate. The problem there is that they lost a huge wedge of votes to the SNP as a result. The Tories have very little to lose in Scotland and the SNP can just blame Brexit for everything - the Lib Dems will bounce back a bit too and pick up some remainers so Labour have a serious problem.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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If you listen to many SNP followers they are outraged by the BBC coverage for example.

Funny how perceptions differ.

Fwiw im in the camp that she gets an easy ride on domestic issues.

 

What I don't know much about is the local issues and whether the Scottish media is on the case. Not really much reason for me to worry about that I suppose. I think basically that our media is just thankful for someone who has a united party and is acting like an official opposition while they pick at the carcass of the Labour Party.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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