Krytensmate Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I can actually forgive some of the original mistakes - we are all human and we should be able to empathise with someone whose mistake was so catastrophic. However the subsequent cover-up, denial and lies are not forgivable. I also completely agree , but what I am waiting for and will be probably until the day I die is for one , just one fan who charged through that gate and ran up through that central tunnel to publicly say they were there and are partly responsible for those 96 deaths , there are a couple of thousand grown adults out there now who are in denial of what they actually did , I don't recall any of these people offering to give evidence at this inquiry Mr Duckinfield was in a no win situation , put there partly through poor pre match decisions , if he hadn't opened the gate then quite possibly we would have seen an inquest asking him how Liverpool fans ended up being crushed to death outside the stadium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I also completely agree , but what I am waiting for and will be probably until the day I die is for one , just one fan who charged through that gate and ran up through that central tunnel to publicly say they were there and are partly responsible for those 96 deaths , there are a couple of thousand grown adults out there now who are in denial of what they actually did , I don't recall any of these people offering to give evidence at this inquiry Mr Duckinfield was in a no win situation , put there partly through poor pre match decisions , if he hadn't opened the gate then quite possibly we would have seen an inquest asking him how Liverpool fans ended up being crushed to death outside the stadium Total and utter bull . Do yourself a favour; go away and read up on what actually happened. Start with the Taylor report and then move on to the findings of the HIP and the transcripts of the inquest. Once you have a slight grasp of what you are talking about then come back and comment. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytensmate Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Total and utter bull ######. Do yourself a favour; go away and read up on what actually happened. Start with the Taylor report and then move on to the findings of the HIP and the transcripts of the inquest. Once you have a slight grasp of what you are talking about then come back and comment. I assume you attended similar matches during that era ? , if so you would be aware of what used to happen , if not then no amount of transcripts can truly explain the pressure placed upon the police and stewarding Did Mr Duckinfield crush anybody to death ? If not , who did ? Happy for you to link me to anybody who attended and admitted they went through the gates opened ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I also completely agree , but what I am waiting for and will be probably until the day I die is for one , just one fan who charged through that gate and ran up through that central tunnel to publicly say they were there and are partly responsible for those 96 deaths , there are a couple of thousand grown adults out there now who are in denial of what they actually did , I don't recall any of these people offering to give evidence at this inquiry Mr Duckinfield was in a no win situation , put there partly through poor pre match decisions , if he hadn't opened the gate then quite possibly we would have seen an inquest asking him how Liverpool fans ended up being crushed to death outside the stadium But no, you don't "completely agree" do you? "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim2 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Individuals acting in a crowd do not have an overview of what they are doing. They are not in a position to see from above, they don't know how many people are in the ground, where the space is or perhaps even the layout of the ground. Opening the gate wasn't the key mistake - it was not blocking the entrance to the central pen - sending the fans round into the side pens would have probably stopped the disaster. Simply delaying the kick off and making a crowd announcement may have resolved it as well. I was at a Third Division (or maybe Fourth) in the 1980s where there were perhaps 500 people in a pen. More than enough space until the end of the game when we all headed to the gate to be let out. It was just that - a gate about 3 feet wide so we channeled in towards that corner like a funnel. The only problem was, they wanted to hold us back until the home fans had gone but crucially did not announce it. As the unwitting crowd pushed towards the entrance it got very, very uncomfortable at the front. I was genuinely scared. People were shouting that they were being squashed but the stewards and police totally ignored us. Thankfully there weren't enough people behind to really cause a problem. When I later saw how events unfolded at Hillsborough it absolutely chiled me to think how frightening it was for those people in the moments before they died. This kind of incident must have happened many times (and had, indeed, happened twice before at Hillsborough). I try my best to remain calm when discussing this with people and implore them to read the reports, the eye witness accounts and keep a true open mind. If I had been there, or I had had a family member who had died, I think I may not be able to react to some of the responses I've seen and read with the dignity that the families have shown throughout this nightmare. The only thing I would say is that football as a whole, and its supporters, must take responsibility for not controlling the hooliganism problem in the 70s and 80s that led to the pens existing in the first place. I would also like the FA to admit their mistakes too. "I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WearyRhino Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 ... but what I am waiting for and will be probably until the day I die is for one , just one fan who charged through that gate and ran up through that central tunnel to publicly say they were there and are partly responsible for those 96 deaths , there are a couple of thousand grown adults out there now who are in denial of what they actually did , I don't recall any of these people offering to give evidence at this inquiry Like blaming the passengers on the Titanic for buying a ticket, not spotting the iceberg, not shouting "Iceberg" and having the temerity to weigh a sinking ship down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Happy for you to link me to anybody who attended and admitted they went through the gates opened ? I would, but THEY ARE DEAD! "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytensmate Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 But no, you don't "completely agree" do you? With the points I highlighted , yes the press and police cover up were a disgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytensmate Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Individuals acting in a crowd do not have an overview of what they are doing. They are not in a position to see from above, they don't know how many people are in the ground, where the space is or perhaps even the layout of the ground. Opening the gate wasn't the key mistake - it was not blocking the entrance to the central pen - sending the fans round into the side pens would have probably stopped the disaster. Simply delaying the kick off and making a crowd announcement may have resolved it as well. I was at a Third Division (or maybe Fourth) in the 1980s where there were perhaps 500 people in a pen. More than enough space until the end of the game when we all headed to the gate to be let out. It was just that - a gate about 3 feet wide so we channeled in towards that corner like a funnel. The only problem was, they wanted to hold us back until the home fans had gone but crucially did not announce it. As the unwitting crowd pushed towards the entrance it got very, very uncomfortable at the front. I was genuinely scared. People were shouting that they were being squashed but the stewards and police totally ignored us. Thankfully there weren't enough people behind to really cause a problem. When I later saw how events unfolded at Hillsborough it absolutely chiled me to think how frightening it was for those people in the moments before they died. This kind of incident must have happened many times (and had, indeed, happened twice before at Hillsborough). I try my best to remain calm when discussing this with people and implore them to read the reports, the eye witness accounts and keep a true open mind. If I had been there, or I had had a family member who had died, I think I may not be able to react to some of the responses I've seen and read with the dignity that the families have shown throughout this nightmare. The only thing I would say is that football as a whole, and its supporters, must take responsibility for not controlling the hooliganism problem in the 70s and 80s that led to the pens existing in the first place. I would also like the FA to admit their mistakes too. It was common knowledge in the 70s/80s that fans would try to blockade the turnstiles at big matches ( specifically cup matches with short supply of tickets ) to attempt to get the police to open exit gates , this wasnt always just individuals but large groups actually planning it at prior matches and on trains/ coaches and in pubs , on more than 1 occasion I was party to these discussions There were many mistakes in the planning of the semi that year , Liverpool should have been allocated the opposite end , with Forest in the Leppings lane , external barriers with stewards and police checking who had tickets well before they got to the turn styles had started to be used to prevent this type of problem At Wembley and other stadia you would get fans attempting to steal tickets from fans literally feet from the turnstiles or trying to bribe turnstyle operators with cash , on more than 1 occasion I had another fan stuck in a turnstyle with me , neither of us able to move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytensmate Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I would, but THEY ARE DEAD! The ones who died are the ones with tickets that got there early and entered legally through the turnstyles , I'm on about the ones who didn't do any of those things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Francis Tyrrell, harrowing evidence of how police treated him when he identified his dead son Kevin, 15 "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 I've just read every word of that and it has left me angry, to say the least. That piece of Hayes is clearly lying through his teeth but presumably is beyond the reach of any sanction for what he did and didn't do. Cant remember? ######!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuffer Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-32136836 beggars belief... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Not just lies from the top of South yorkshire police but callousness and indifference from the rank and file, absolutely sickening "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-32136836 beggars belief... One of those is someone I know. I've known about this since it happened. After all these years it's no easier to go over again. It will, for me, remain a very painful time as I was a very close friend of one of the families who lost a young son and brother. The way all the people were dealt with in the aftermath is inexcusable. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Hillsborough inquests: Jury reaches decision on unlawful killing question but won't be announced until tomorrow morning. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuffer Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 If they've reached a decision why wait a day until announcing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 If they've reached a decision why wait a day until announcing it? I think it is to allow time for all the victims families to get there who want to be in court for the decision. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltshire Rhino Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 If they've reached a decision why wait a day until announcing it? To allow all the families time to get to the court 2014 Challenged Cup Winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Thank god its nearly all over. My office is next door to the inquest and its caused chaos in the area on and off for years. I'm staying well clear tomorrow with the inevitable traffic chaos, press scrum and potential for a pretty volatile atmosphere depending on the verdict. St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Thank god its nearly all over. My office is next door to the inquest and its caused chaos in the area on and off for years. I'm staying well clear tomorrow with the inevitable traffic chaos, press scrum and potential for a pretty volatile atmosphere depending on the verdict. So not grateful that the families will potentially get some closure, but grateful that Birchwood Park gets a bit quieter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuffer Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 I think it is to allow time for all the victims families to get there who want to be in court for the decision. Ah right, makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Thank god its nearly all over. My office is next door to the inquest and its caused chaos in the area on and off for years. I'm staying well clear tomorrow with the inevitable traffic chaos, press scrum and potential for a pretty volatile atmosphere depending on the verdict. I hope whatever the verdict is tomorrow that this matter is now closed as I don't see how anything more can be done than has been done to establish responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim2 Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 I hope whatever the verdict is tomorrow that this matter is now closed as I don't see how anything more can be done than has been done to establish responsibility. No chance - there are several investigations already under way (including criminal ones) based on the inquest evidence that will take a while to conclude. At this stage the families will want it to go all the way. "I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted April 26, 2016 Author Share Posted April 26, 2016 Spot on. We have to get away from this idea that police officers etc can avoid culpability and sanction by leaving, being fired or by retiring.a scandal that cannot continue and here is an opportunity to end this practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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