BenGilesRL Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Include everything up to semi-finals in season tickets for top flight and everything up to Million Pound Game in season tickets for middles and work like this: Option 1: (top eight) SL: Week 1 1v2 - Winner to Grand Final, Loser to SF 3v8 - Winner to Week 2 loser out 4v7 - Winner to Week 2 loser out 5v6 - Winner to Week 2 loser out Week 2 2nd Highest remaining v lowest remaining 3rd highest remaining v 2nd lowest remaining SF Highest remaining v lowest remaining Grand final. Middle Eights: SL: 9th v 12th. Winner survival, loser to week 2 10th v 11th. Winner survival, loser to week 2 Champ: 1st v 4th, winner to week 2, loser out 2nd v 3rd, winner to week 2, loser out Week 2 SL: Highest loser v lowest loser. Winner survival, loser to MPG Champ: Highest winner v lowest winner. Winner to MPG, loser out. MPG: SL losers v Champ winners All ko mentality for fans except one, though top two always achieved good crowds in the past for playoffs. Jeopardy all the way Discuss pros and cons Option 2: (top six/bottom six) SL Week 1 3v6 loser out 4v5 loser out Week 2: 1v2 winner to GF Winner 3v6 v winner 4v5 loser out Prelim final Loser 1v2 v remaining team GF Winners 1v2 v winner prelim final The rest: 7v10 winner - survival 8v9 winner - survival Week 2 Highest loser week 1 v 12: loser to MPG Lowest loser week 1 v 11 loser MPG Champ 1v4 Champ 2v3 lowest SL remaining v highest champ remaining - winner SL status, loser Champ Highest SL remaining v lowest champ remaining Winner SL status, loser champ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southampton Leyther Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Cons for middle 8's is that IMO (and many others have stated the same) in a MPG between a SL and Championship side the SL side will win 9 times out of 10. As counter-intuitive as it sounds I actually think a Championship side is more likely to go up automatically by finishing top 3 of the middle 8's than they are by reaching and then winning the MPG against SL opposition. Your format would remove any possibility of auto promotion for a Championship team and would mean that the best they could hope for would be a one off shot at a SL team in the MPG. To make matters worse, as unlikely as I feel it is for a Championship side to win the MPG, at least under the current format the Championship team would have 4 'warm up' matches against SL opposition to prepare for the intensity of the MPG. Under your proposed format a Championship club would play 23 matches against Championship opposition in the league, 2 more against Championship opposition in the play offs and then some how they would be expected to be ready and prepared to face SL opposition in the MPG, with promotion on the line. This despite (likely) not having played a single SL team all season. A SL team having just played 25 SL teams in a row vs a Champ team that has just played 25 Champ teams in a row going head to head with promotion and relegation on the line is a ludicrous idea. The Championship team would be in no way, shape or form prepared for the biggest match of their season and would simply get spanked 99 times out of 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 So from 9 times out of 10, it's now 99 times out of a hundred? Also didn't Leigh win their first match against SL opposition having played all Championship opposition in the regular season previously? Is your argument really that a championship team beating SL opposition multiple times (having not played them all year) to finish top 3 is more likely than them beating them once having not played them all year? That sounds ludicrous...thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Include everything up to semi-finals in season tickets for top flight and everything up to Million Pound Game in season tickets for middles and work like this: SL: Week 1 1v2 - Winner to Week 3 SF, Loser to week 2 3v8 - Winner to week 2, loser out 4v7 - Winner to week 2, loser out 5v6 - winner to week 2, loser out Week 2 Loser 1v2 v lowest remaining 2nd Highest remaining v 2nd lowest remaining 3rd highest remaining v 3rd lowest remaining Winners to SF, losers out Winner 1v2 v lowest remaining 2nd highest remaining v 2nd lowest remaining Grand final. That doesn't add up.After the first round, you'd have 5 teams left. One has a bye, so four teams in that round. Yet you have 3 games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Cons for middle 8's is that IMO (and many others have stated the same) in a MPG between a SL and Championship side the SL side will win 9 times out of 10. As counter-intuitive as it sounds I actually think a Championship side is more likely to go up automatically by finishing top 3 of the middle 8's than they are by reaching and then winning the MPG against SL opposition. Your format would remove any possibility of auto promotion for a Championship team and would mean that the best they could hope for would be a one off shot at a SL team in the MPG. To make matters worse, as unlikely as I feel it is for a Championship side to win the MPG, at least under the current format the Championship team would have 4 'warm up' matches against SL opposition to prepare for the intensity of the MPG. Under your proposed format a Championship club would play 23 matches against Championship opposition in the league, 2 more against Championship opposition in the play offs and then some how they would be expected to be ready and prepared to face SL opposition in the MPG, with promotion on the line. This despite (likely) not having played a single SL team all season. A SL team having just played 25 SL teams in a row vs a Champ team that has just played 25 Champ teams in a row going head to head with promotion and relegation on the line is a ludicrous idea. The Championship team would be in no way, shape or form prepared for the biggest match of their season and would simply get spanked 99 times out of 100. No offense, but that's rubbish. Arguing that a Championship club has more chance of winning several games against SL clubs than a one off just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 That doesn't add up. After the first round, you'd have 5 teams left. One has a bye, so four teams in that round. Yet you have 3 games? Thanks good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Include everything up to semi-finals in season tickets for top flight and everything up to Million Pound Game in season tickets for middles and work like this: Most SL clubs already do for the league As for the rest, what's peoples obsession for trying to manipulate the system to reward failure ? Quite frankly if you finish 8th out of a 12 team competition you don't deserve an equal chance of getting to the final after the first 6 months of the year. Clubs like Widnes should stop whining they can't make the top 4 and concentrate on playing better over the first 23 games and EARN their place in the top 4. St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 It's not equal though - if you finish 8th you would have to win away at 3rd, away at 1st or 2nd, and then beat 1st or 2nd in the final to win it. Considering they wouldn't have done that all year its very unlikely they'd do it anyway - but there's always the what if they did scenario to get bums on seats and keep hope alive Having said that i take your point and will think about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 It's not equal though - if you finish 8th you would have to win away at 3rd, away at 1st or 2nd, and then beat 1st or 2nd in the final to win it. But they're still only 2 games away from reaching the final same as everyone else. The only reward for the teams who performed so well over the first 6 months is home tie. All your hard work over 6 months could be undone by having 1 off night, likewise 6 months of mediocracy could be rewarded by having 1 good game. 6 months and 23 games is more than enough to earn your place in the top 4 and a shot at the title St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbruce Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 For me the best system we've had is the top 5 playoff. There was a genuine reward for every place you finished up the league. 23 league games with a top 5 playoff if this isn't enough home games add a SL cup then teams can pick and choose the players they want to use in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 For me the best system we've had is the top 5 playoff. There was a genuine reward for every place you finished up the league. 23 league games with a top 5 playoff if this isn't enough home games add a SL cup then teams can pick and choose the players they want to use in it. I agree, I think the top 5 system was just about the best we've had. Right number of teams and the right balance of rewards for your league placing St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 But they're still only 2 games away from reaching the final same as everyone else. The only reward for the teams who performed so well over the first 6 months is home tie. All your hard work over 6 months could be undone by having 1 off night, likewise 6 months of mediocracy could be rewarded by having 1 good game. 6 months and 23 games is more than enough to earn your place in the top 4 and a shot at the title For those that think this - option 2 now provided in original post featuring a top 6 instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 A 8 team straight knock out format. Once you lose your out no second chances. Simple and one that the fans would clearly understand and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark S Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 A 8 team straight knock out format. Once you lose your out no second chances. Simple and one that the fans would clearly understand and support. 8 teams up to many, we need to give teams an incentive to aim for a top finish, not just switch on for a few games at the end of the season. Top 4 play off for me, no second chances. I would also have an even amount of prize money for coming top and winning the grand final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 A 8 team straight knock out format. Once you lose your out no second chances. Simple and one that the fans would clearly understand and support. Understand yes, support not necessarily. I wouldn't support any format that makes most of the season meaningless and rewards mediocracy St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 What do you think of the top six/bottom six format as shown in option 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1. Most SL clubs already do for the league 2. As for the rest, what's peoples obsession for trying to manipulate the system to reward failure ? Quite frankly if you finish 8th out of a 12 team competition you don't deserve an equal chance of getting to the final after the first 6 months of the year. Clubs like Widnes should stop whining they can't make the top 4 and concentrate on playing better over the first 23 games and EARN their place in the top 4. 1. I think they all do. 2. You seem very strong on this viewpoint but appear to support a top 5 playoff - using your argument I think giving 5th the opportunity to be crowned Champions is absolutely manipulating a system to reward failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1. I think they all do. 2. You seem very strong on this viewpoint but appear to support a top 5 playoff - using your argument I think giving 5th the opportunity to be crowned Champions is absolutely manipulating a system to reward failure. I don't think any team finishing in the bottom half of the table deserves a chance at the title. I'd be happy with a Top 6 play-off system in a 12 team league but given the choice between a top 6 and a Top 5 I'd prefer the 5. Over the years, of the various systems we've tried, for me that one seemed to offer the best reward for clubs whilst still maintaining enough fans interest. St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 What do you think of the top six format as described in the original post? Also includes bottom six format leading to two Million pound games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweaty craiq Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 We are ready for two divisions of 10 in SL for 2018, 1 up/down between them and 3/5 year licences with annual caveats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I don't think any team finishing in the bottom half of the table deserves a chance at the title. I'd be happy with a Top 6 play-off system in a 12 team league but given the choice between a top 6 and a Top 5 I'd prefer the 5. Over the years, of the various systems we've tried, for me that one seemed to offer the best reward for clubs whilst still maintaining enough fans interest. I think it depends how you get your head round it, I don't think the 8 team playoff worked, but I think the positioning of the Super 8's is wrong tbh. In my eyes, after 23 rounds we have an elimination, where the weakest 4 are excluded from the SL comp for the rest of the year and have to fight for their life. The remaining 8 then carry on to compete for the SL title. I think when they moved to 8, the whole 'winning it from the 2nd half' became an issue (didn't bother me but I can see why it would bother others) - but in reality, we are not saying Widnes should be able to win it - the season finishes after 30 rounds, so there is discussion about how we try and avoid the top 4 being secured by Rd24. I do take your point, but we are ultimately in the entertainment business, and we can alter things how we want to create the interest. When you look at the crowds for the various playoffs, the top 5 seemed to have really held up well and delivered some good crowds - the addition of teams and 2nd chances for teams outside of the top 2 really started to water it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Why not have a straight knock out top 4 after Round 23, so the Grand Final is in late July, then split the top 8 and have two four-year groups. Winner and runner-up of each group enters the NRL play offs which then becomes a World Club Series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Wiganer Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I think they should wait and see each year - they should draw a line under where Wigan finish after 23/27/ whatever rounds and then have a home play off system whereby every team (if any) above us plays at the DW until we beat one. At which point we are champions. Easy to understand and would be welcomed among (some) fans. Or have my model of a 2 tier SL with automatics p and r, and a top 4 play off - all teams in the same league play each other home and away and once against the teams in the other league (with cross league matches determined on the basis of proximity and finishing positions the previous year). Enough games, enough variety, enough certainty of income, opportunities for expansion clubs and less fear of dropping down a league... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 What do you think of the top six/bottom six format as shown in option 2? Option 1 (now that it adds up) I think having 2 weeks off could be a disadvantage going into the final. The other teams are battle hardened. There's always that argument about whether it's better to have played or to have rested. Option 2 is just the old Top 6 system. Your relegation games I don't like. If you finish mid table, you shouldn't be dragged into a relegation battle to be honest. Bottom 3 max IMO. And I'd have more games v the Championship. It's variety at this stage that makes it more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenGilesRL Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 Option 1 (now that it adds up) I think having 2 weeks off could be a disadvantage going into the final. The other teams are battle hardened. There's always that argument about whether it's better to have played or to have rested. Option 2 is just the old Top 6 system. Your relegation games I don't like. If you finish mid table, you shouldn't be dragged into a relegation battle to be honest. Bottom 3 max IMO. And I'd have more games v the Championship. It's variety at this stage that makes it more interesting. Thanks for your thoughts (and help initially) on that one Wellsy. Appreciate your comments - personally I have come to love option 2. Essentially either 7 or 8 would be big favourites against the bottom side anyway, and also against anyone else they play so I don't think there's much for them to fear. Also imagine the scramble to get into the top six like there's been to get in the top eight. Shot at the championship or risk of the championship. High stakes - high intensity Yeah further development to have a few more games for Chanp sides v SL would be interesting - any ideas let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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