The NHS Strike

[Bedford Roughyed]

Well the Sun is sitting on the fence.

 

[ckn]

They're so evil that they convinced a Tory MP to join by a cross-party plea for piloting the contract and then seeing actual impacts.

P.s. If a certain formerly banned poster keeps making it personal we won't lock the thread we'll just delete his posts and ban him.

[Saintslass]

Based on the snippet in the OP I agree with the Sun on this occasion.  I read the contract when it was posted on the BBC website and there is nothing in it to cause anyone to strike much less doctors.  The final disagreement was over Saturday pay.  And indeed the BMA is vociferous, talking now about ongoing strikes and such like as if this wasn't a profession with the primary aim of looking after people when they are most vulnerable.

[Saint Toppy]

I generally support the doctors in their dispute, partly because I think Hunt is an arrogant (pick a word that rhymes with his surname).

 

But I'm sorry I draw the line at supporting them now they're genuinely putting peoples lives in danger by removing emergency support. When people start dying in waiting rooms because the doctors are stood outside with a placard they'll quickly find the public turn against them.

[ckn]

I generally support the doctors in their dispute, partly because I think Hunt is an arrogant (pick a word that rhymes with his surname).

But I'm sorry I draw the line at supporting them now they're genuinely putting peoples lives in danger by removing emergency support. When people start dying in waiting rooms because the doctors are stood outside with a placard they'll quickly find the public turn against them.

I don't like the emergency and urgent care doctors going on strike but what other option do they have? Give up and say "ah well, our limited impact strike affecting non-emergency care didn't work so we just have to suck it up and sign"?

[Saintslass]

I don't like the emergency and urgent care doctors going on strike but what other option do they have? Give up and say "ah well, our limited impact strike affecting non-emergency care didn't work so we just have to suck it up and sign"?

That is exactly what they should be doing.  They should be teachers.  Teachers have had to take all manner of interference from successive governments, including their terms and conditions.  In the end, teachers had to 'suck it up and sign'.  Doctors should stop thinking they are special cases.  They aren't.  They are public servants.  There are I'm sure issues to address, like morale, but the contract is a fair one and the government rightly wants to fulfill a promise on which they were elected.

[Bedford Roughyed]

As consultants are covering the emergency departments, you will probably get better treatment today.  

[Saintslass]

As consultants are covering the emergency departments, you will probably get better treatment today.  

Assuming there are enough consultants available to cover what is required of course. 

[Bedford Roughyed]

Based on the snippet in the OP I agree with the Sun on this occasion.  I read the contract when it was posted on the BBC website and there is nothing in it to cause anyone to strike much less doctors.  The final disagreement was over Saturday pay.  And indeed the BMA is vociferous, talking now about ongoing strikes and such like as if this wasn't a profession with the primary aim of looking after people when they are most vulnerable.

 

 

So you read the part which said the contract would be discriminating to women?  

[ckn]

As consultants are covering the emergency departments, you will probably get better treatment today.

I know one hospital where the clinically trained managers are providing clinical admin support for the consultants who are having to dual-hat today and tomorrow. There is extensive support for the juniors in the vast majority of hospital management chains.

[JohnM]

If the junior doctors have voted to go on strike in a properly constituted trades union vote, then go on strike they are entitled to do. If patients suffer, so be it. It is that threat to patients that the union is using to put pressure on the government, so no matter the dressing up of consultants cover, not wanting to harm patients, etc, it's union pressurising Govt, which is what the members voted for.

However, it is disingenuous for the union leadership to pretend this is about the new contract. It is plain to see from the pickets posters and the presence of a ragbag of hangers on at the picket lines that this is a political strike. Again and again, it's "save Our NHS" and interviews with strikers who say they are striking to stop alleged privatisation.

It would be honorable if the union leaders were honest and said so instead of lying and misleading their members, the public and the patients. Trainee doctors deserve better than to be led by the nose by the hard left.

Of course, if they told the truth, public sympathy would vanish overnight.

[Just Browny]

They're so evil that they convinced a Tory MP to join by a cross-party plea for piloting the contract and then seeing actual impacts.

P.s. If a certain formerly banned poster keeps making it personal we won't lock the thread we'll just delete his posts and ban him.

 

Not just a Tory MP: he was the junior Minister who led these negotiations for the government until the election. Plus your mate Norman Lamb, also a Minister in that government as you well remember.

[Trojan]

Cameron promised a 7 day NHS.  But he doesn't want to pay any extra for it.  The NHS has been starved of money under Cameron.  The doctors have had enough.  Many of them have already bailed for foreign shores.  Hunt should be sacked, then government can back down gracefully.  The NHS is in a mess.  This government has caused the mess.  Cameron has admitted that he had no idea what Lansley's "reforms" would mean.  But they've painted themselves into a corner.  Can anyone imagine a government so stupid as to alienate educated, sophisticated, graduates so much that they're prepared to go on all out strike.  This strike is political, it's been made so by the Tories.

[Saintslass]

So you read the part which said the contract would be discriminating to women?  

I didn't refer to any report.  I referred to the contract, which was featured on the BBC website.  It featured prior to the last round of strikes.

[Saintslass]

Cameron promised a 7 day NHS.  But he doesn't want to pay any extra for it.  The NHS has been starved of money under Cameron.  The doctors have had enough.  Many of them have already bailed for foreign shores. 

The NHS has been ringfenced under this government and under the coalition.  It hasn't been starved of money at all.  It is a big black hole into which you could throw any amount of money and it would never be enough.  And doctors have been working abroad for decades, just as we have been employing foreign doctors for decades.  Medics can always find work somewhere in the world just as teachers can.

[Trojan]

The NHS has been ringfenced under this government and under the coalition.  It hasn't been starved of money at all.  It is a big black hole into which you could throw any amount of money and it would never be enough.  And doctors have been working abroad for decades, just as we have been employing foreign doctors for decades.  Medics can always find work somewhere in the world just as teachers can.

No, Cameron says it's been ringfenced. In actual fact compared to previous governments spending has been cut.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-nhs-spending-unspun/10905

n.b. not from the Guardian.

[Saintslass]

No, Cameron says it's been ringfenced. In actual fact compared to previous governments spending has been cut.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-nhs-spending-unspun/10905

n.b. not from the Guardian.

Andy Burnham eh?  May as well be the Guardian!

 

So because the government no longer had public funds to plough in 7% rises every year - thanks to Labour public spending policy (no doubt those 7% rises contributed to the massive public sector debt) - the coalition were wrong in increasing spending at a much lower rate, one which better reflected the public funds available? 

[ckn]

Hunt has said today that Health Minister is his last big job on politics. Really? And here's me thinking he'd done such a good job that he could pick his career advancement.

[chuffer]

I read the contract when it was posted on the BBC website and there is nothing in it to cause anyone to strike much less doctors.  

 

So if your boss said "we need you to start working more weekends" and you countered with "well, I can't say the family are going to be chuffed about that but I guess the extra money coming in from overtime should soften the blow, eh!" and then the boss said "err, well yes except for we're reducing the rate of overtime though.....by the way I need you to sign this contract to say you're happy to proceed with this".......

 

and you'd be chuffed with that then?

[Griff9of13]

Well the Sun is sitting on the fence.

 

 

Who would listen to what the S###### has to to say on today of all days; only the absolute dregs of society. 

[Trojan]

Andy Burnham eh?  May as well be the Guardian!

 

So because the government no longer had public funds to plough in 7% rises every year - thanks to Labour public spending policy (no doubt those 7% rises contributed to the massive public sector debt) - the coalition were wrong in increasing spending at a much lower rate, one which better reflected the public funds available? 

But you said there'd been no cut!. The government had the money, it's not a matter of the money it's a matter of the desire/  Things weren't as bad in 2010 as Gideon pretended.  They wanted an excuse to shrink the state and the deficit was that excuse.  Had they continued with Darling's plans to reduce the deficit by 2020 we'd still be where we are today but without the cuts.  The only people to blame for the NHS, the stubborn deficit, and the mess over Europe are Cameron and Osborne. Ably assisted for the first five years by Clegg.

[Saintslass]

So if your boss said "we need you to start working more weekends" and you countered with "well, I can't say the family are going to be chuffed about that but I guess the extra money coming in from overtime should soften the blow, eh!" and then the boss said "err, well yes except for we're reducing the rate of overtime though.....by the way I need you to sign this contract to say you're happy to proceed with this".......

 

and you'd be chuffed with that then?

Hey, I've worked in both the private and public sectors and have had no choice whatsoever about my terms and conditions once I've started employment, and I've never earned overtime.  All my overtime done for free, and that is expected when you work in an office.

[Saintslass]

But you said there'd been no cut!. The government had the money, it's not a matter of the money it's a matter of the desire/  Things weren't as bad in 2010 as Gideon pretended.  They wanted an excuse to shrink the state and the deficit was that excuse.  Had they continued with Darling's plans to reduce the deficit by 2020 we'd still be where we are today but without the cuts.  The only people to blame for the NHS, the stubborn deficit, and the mess over Europe are Cameron and Osborne. Ably assisted for the first five years by Clegg.

There hasn't been a cut.  The yearly amount given to the NHS has simply not been as big as the whopping 7% per annum it was getting under Labour.

[Trojan]

There hasn't been a cut.  The yearly amount given to the NHS has simply not been as big as the whopping 7% per annum it was getting under Labour.

But there has, and you implied it by using the excuse of the deficit for it, Doesn't that count as a cut.  Isn't it obvious that the NHS is struggling because of such "non-cuts"  plus of course all the "efficiency savings" that also don't count as "cuts."  Do you think there'd be all this mayhem in the NHS if everything was running smoothly? You really do need to take your blue tinted specs off and see the world as other see it.

[Griff9of13]

Hey, I've worked in both the private and public sectors and have had no choice whatsoever about my terms and conditions once I've started employment, and I've never earned overtime.  All my overtime done for free, and that is expected when you work in an office.

 

Perhaps you should join a union.