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Would Promotion and Relegation work in the NRL


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Just an idea of what a NRL with pro/rel could look like an some pros and cons

We would have 2 comps of 12 teams who play each other twice home and away. Bottom 2 are relegated whilst the minor premiers of the championship are promoted along with the finals winner. Top 6 finals and 2-7 for championship. Even salary cap across both divisions with different funding model. Teams would look something like

NRL 1

Cronulla Sharks, Melbourne Storm, Canberra Raiders, NQ Cowboys, Brisbane Broncos, Penrith Panthers, Canterbury Bulldogs, GC Titans, Wests Tigers, Auckland Warriors, SGI Dragons, SS Rabbitohs

NRL 2

Manly Sea Eagles, Parramatta Eels, Sydney Roosters, Newcastle Knights, West Coast Pirates, Ipswich Jets, Wellington Orcas, Christchurch Bulls, Adelaide Rams, Central Coast Bears, Central Queensland Capras, PNG Hunters

Pro's

Give a number of areas a team, makes it a truly national and international competition.

Allows clubs to find there level and be competitive, drama associated with promotion and relegation

Only a 12 team top league enhances the quality of teams, whilst the second division gives teams and opportunity to build and regrow. Can only at worse be 1 season away from the top league

Cons

Potentially Losing fans over relegation

Expensive for the NRL to get it started

Player depth will be tested early with some weak teams in second division

Could go both ways

TV deal will have more games (fox sports will love a second league) however less in the top league

Fans reaction to how the league is structured (pro/rel is new to Australian culture)

What do u guys think? Could we ever see a pro/rel in the NRL and do u think it would be successful?

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The instability of a non secured top flight spot promotes poor prioritisation of a clubs finances and player development that we see in the SL.

The theoretical concept is fascinating to me however. Furthermore, I love the proposal of Manly and Parra in Div 2 :) Unfortunately, in terms of finances, fans, talent and grassroots, we are a long way off from sustaining two professional divisions in the NRL.

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I would prefer a league where the number of clubs is such that they all play each other once both home and away. If new clubs are admitted then at some point I suppose the system will have to vary or be changed. You'd think there'd be an upper limit after which it would become either unwieldy or even unfair.

I can't see P&R being introduced as the game stands. The current system is working. The game generates a lot of money and importantly a sea of new talent is being produced.

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The instability of a non secured top flight spot promotes poor prioritisation of a clubs finances and player development that we see in the SL.

The theoretical concept is fascinating to me however. Furthermore, I love the proposal of Manly and Parra in Div 2 :) Unfortunately, in terms of finances, fans, talent and grassroots, we are a long way off from sustaining two professional divisions in the NRL.

The concept fascinated me aswell, the idea of a team fighting for promotion or to stay up is intriguing. I think once the NRL reaches a limit of day 20 teams, that will be when they look at potentially pro/rel

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Unfortunately, in terms of finances, fans, talent and grassroots, we are a long way off from sustaining two professional divisions in the NRL.

which I might add, makes it even more appalling that the RFL are spreading their resources so slim in an attempt to do so themselves

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  • 3 weeks later...

If it where ever to happen I hope it's not in my life time. Just imagine if we did have PR and over a 10 year period Souths (30,000 plus members), Brisbane (30,000 plus members) & Parramatta (Large support base) all suffered huge injury tolls & where relegated and replaced with Adelaide, Christchurch & Manly , The game would loose around 100,000 paid up supporters & maybe gain 35,000 with the three promoted teams! This is not good business.

 

I think the impending death of Bradford bulls who are without doubt one of England's biggest RL brands highlights just how dangerous PR can be, I'll tell you if Wigan & Leeds where to ever suffer seriously bad luck and go down then SL should just shut up shop. The RFL should have steeped in and taken control of Bradford just like the NRL has done with the Gold Coast Titans/Sea Gulls/Giants/Chargers, If the NRL can see the value of the GC then surely the RFL should be able to see the same in Bradford.

 

I do not like PR and hope in never gets a foot into Australian RL.

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With promotion and relegation being such an alien concept to the Aussie sporting public I'm wondering if we'll ever see a 20 team NRL competition or maybe even conferences.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If it where ever to happen I hope it's not in my life time. Just imagine if we did have PR and over a 10 year period Souths (30,000 plus members), Brisbane (30,000 plus members) & Parramatta (Large support base) all suffered huge injury tolls & where relegated and replaced with Adelaide, Christchurch & Manly , The game would loose around 100,000 paid up supporters & maybe gain 35,000 with the three promoted teams! This is not good business.

 

I think the impending death of Bradford bulls who are without doubt one of England's biggest RL brands highlights just how dangerous PR can be, I'll tell you if Wigan & Leeds where to ever suffer seriously bad luck and go down then SL should just shut up shop. The RFL should have steeped in and taken control of Bradford just like the NRL has done with the Gold Coast Titans/Sea Gulls/Giants/Chargers, If the NRL can see the value of the GC then surely the RFL should be able to see the same in Bradford.

 

I do not like PR and hope in never gets a foot into Australian RL.

I agree with you at all, but Bradford was struggling before going down...

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Soccer is the biggest sport on the planet and they have promotion and relegation. How can a club go all season without a win and stay up.And if you support a team in the division below why should you bother watching them if you know they can't progress no matter what.As a fan you want your team to progress but they can't if they can't get promoted. And we call Union Elitist.That's my view anyway.

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Soccer is the biggest sport on the planet and they have promotion and relegation. How can a club go all season without a win and stay up.And if you support a team in the division below why should you bother watching them if you know they can't progress no matter what.As a fan you want your team to progress but they can't if they can't get promoted. And we call Union Elitist.That's my view anyway.

No PR in Australian soccer because it's not the way we like sport in this country and long may that continue. Nothing at all elitist about consistency as far as I can see.

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Rabbit in my opinion that is why soccer in our country is going no where because their is no p/r but in terms of our sport and the nrl i believe currently p/r would be disastrous in another 30-40 years who knows p/r might be the way too go.

Personally i absolutely love p/r in English Rugby League long may it continue. The Hull KR v Salford game was out of this world.

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Rabbit in my opinion that is why soccer in our country is going no where because their is no p/r but in terms of our sport and the nrl i believe currently p/r would be disastrous in another 30-40 years who knows p/r might be the way too go.

Personally i absolutely love p/r in English Rugby League long may it continue. The Hull KR v Salford game was out of this world.

 

The Hull KR v Salford game wasn't "out of this world" because it was a promotion/relegation decider though was it? Those same dramatic late game outcomes take place within the NRL structure all the time. Yes it was dramatic/tense/explosive etc. for such an outcome to occur in those circumstances but look at the resultant damage to the loser. The biggest drawback to P&R is the sheer chaos it introduces to the structure, which in itself causes damage to the wider game. It's hard to think that SL can survive the demise of 1 of only 4 teams with a 15K fanbase (Bradford) for example and as others have said this would be precisely the risk to NRL.

 

P&R only really looks good to fans of small teams and those who IMHO have a bit of a ruthless capitalist take on things generally (or perhaps lack the imagination to think that things can be structured more evenly and fair-handed). For a socialist like myself a stable, wide-reaching (and ever-expanding) elite league is just the ticket. Whether it is true that NRL or any other franchised league is strictly "socialist" is of course debatable (they are designed to maximise profit for their participants, of course) but they share important traits with that ideology. Moreover, keeping smaller teams out of the top flight is in many ways for their own benefit. There's no point a team punching above their weight even for a short period of team and it only ends one way - witness the endless round of "Save Our *insert team name*" buckets going around the less heralded terraces of SL ad infinitum. So you have to be cruel to be kind.

 

By contrast, ruthless Thatcherite "survival of the fittest" P&R leagues that both encourage irresponsible spending and bring with them the possibility (as others have stated) of narrowing elite level geographical reach are utterly opposed to any notions of stability and inclusion (key traits of socialism).

 

It's a little sad and ironic then really that working class sports like soccer and RL have come in this country (England) to mirror the very worst aspects of capitalism (with haves and have nots and a complete absence of "solidarity"), whereas in the USA - the world's most brutal economic/social system and forerunner of neo-liberalism - they weirdly grasp the idea of pro sport being "socialist". Funny old world eh?

 

Gimme the nicer, wider-reaching and sustainable one anyway.

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One of the questions I have is-a team goes all season without a win,how can you justify them staying in that division?.It's like a private members club.

 

I suppose one way of looking at it is that they (and their fans) have suffered enough. Demoting them hardly helps them or the league they would be leaving (assuming that they were chosen in the first place as they represent an area deemed to deserve a permanent "franchise", which is how selection in those leagues generally works).

 

In actuality it's very rare that sides in franchised leagues have quite such poor records due to the general parity between the teams in those leagues (which isn't to say they don't happen - see the Knights last season). But they are much more common in P&R leagues, where by definition you have sides unprepared to step up a level or where the bottom has simply fallen out financially and they are in effect begging to go down a level. Franchised leagues are all the better for not opening themselves up to these scenarios.

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Deadshot you make some good points especially about the american sporting scene and socialism aspect of it but i still love p/r in english RL.

The tension in that Hull KR v Salford game was electric.

I believe that when it comes to smaller clubs the fact that there is a pathway to the top the SL makes it great they can dream of getting there.

Taking that away from smaller teams is harsh.

Our population is too small in oz to introduce p/r so when it comes to our league i would be opposed to p/r.

But im envious of the English for having p/r it adds so much to you're league.

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Deadshot you make some good points especially about the american sporting scene and socialism aspect of it but i still love p/r in english RL.

The tension in that Hull KR v Salford game was electric.

I believe that when it comes to smaller clubs the fact that there is a pathway to the top the SL makes it great they can dream of getting there.

Taking that away from smaller teams is harsh.

Our population is too small in oz to introduce p/r so when it comes to our league i would be opposed to p/r.

But im envious of the English for having p/r it adds so much to you're league.

 

You see "electric" and I just see "senselessly chaotic". And this is before we even look at the damage done to junior development in those leagues, which has been better discussed elsewhere.

 

Taking something away from someone that they don't deserve in the first place isn't harsh. It's good medicine. I'd love to think that Batley, Whitehaven, Swinton, Dewsbury etc. could add value to and make a go of SL but I'm a pragmatist. It can't happen. SL is not their level.

 

It adds so much to our league? Have you seen the state of SL just now?

 

I think you want to have your cake and eat it. You like the razzmatazz and stability of NRL but you want a bit of SL's chaos and ruthless edge as well. But these 2 elements are oil and water. Be careful what you wish for lad. NRL is in rude health precisely because of the structural decisions it has bravely taken in the last 20-30 years. Deviation from this course would be wholly irresponsible and ultimately disastrous.

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So basically, if you're a fan of a club outside of the NRL there is no point in attending the games because they cannot progress,people stop going, club shuts down end of story.8t just seems very unfair that a lower league club isn't allowed the opportunity to progress themselves. As I said soccer is massive worldwide and they have it,so it cant be that bad can it.Well that's my view anyway.

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So basically, if you're a fan of a club outside of the NRL there is no point in attending the games because they cannot progress,people stop going, club shuts down end of story.8t just seems very unfair that a lower league club isn't allowed the opportunity to progress themselves. As I said soccer is massive worldwide and they have it,so it cant be that bad can it.Well that's my view anyway.

 

I don't live in Australia but that wouldn't be my take on the attendance at or death ratio of non-NRL pro/semi-pro sides. Hopefully an Aussie can counter that argument. The flip side, of course, is the enormous growth of NRL itself - both a great result in and of itself but also creating vast sums of money to pass down the food chain, which greatly benefits those smaller teams.

 

The problem as I see it is that you start from a sectarian position (namely "my club or nothing") rather than looking at the bigger picture. When you take a wider view you see that the elite level isn't right for many sides (most likely including yours). We get very emotional about our pro teams in England, which blinds us to the bigger picture. Soccer can get away with P&R as there are so many teams. Still - Leicester City's astonishing EPL win apart - the Euro soccer leagues are classic examples of brutal Thatcherite systems with the top teams hoovering up all the best talent and winning (almost) everything and the smaller teams floundering around effectively living on credit and goodwill. Not only are these leagues a bit dull as a result but it is difficult to take the view that they are even sustainable in the medium to long-term.

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Currently the game in the UK is in a trough.

The spark and drive seems to have gone, or should that be a sense of direction.

There are plenty of good clubs working really hard within the system and sometimes despite the system.

The game here has to cut its cloth tight as we don't have the profile to attract the really big money.

My club is in the Championship which a returning aussie player unkindly said was about 20 years behind the time.

Now that might be an exaggeration!

Whatever, there are some hard working people doing their level best to employ and pay players and staff and develop good or better facilities and attract the paying public.

 

Soccer is the big game here, and of course it is massive, attracting  attention not only here but from followers around the world.

Then there's Union (and some other sports/pastimes) which has a much more media attention than RL.

 

If I could magic up one thing here that the NRL has in abundance, it wouldn't in the first place be money, it would be the conveyor belt of good young top class talent that comes into the game.

 

P&R is the current hot potato of discussion.

A few years ago it was summer/winter rugby.

 

Like a lot of politicians we  seem to think that any kind of change must be progress. Well it isn't.

The NRL can't be directly copied here.

There's much within it that can inspire and challenge us though.

We need to raise our game as we seem to be flat lining/struggling.

 

Or is that just too pessimistic a view on a dim, damp December afternoon?

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If I could magic up one thing here that the NRL has in abundance, it wouldn't in the first place be money, it would be the conveyor belt of good young top class talent that comes into the game.

 

Well absolutely. But that of course does cost money and is also reliant on a visible, wide-reaching and lucrative elite league. When our administrators deem that merging the 2 academies in Hull in order to scrimp and save a few quid to keep the 2 pro sides afloat (and for how long realistically?), for example, then you surely have to stop making excuses about soccer, RU etc. and admit that the English game simply does not have the courage or foresight to drag itself into the 21st century.

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