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Why do England backs give up on NRL so easy?


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The NRL has had an influx of English players in recent years and while the forwards have all been excellent, the backs have struggled.

I don't hold it against any player struggling at first in a new country, new team-mates etc. what has dissapointed me though, is how they have given up so easily and gone back to Super League rather than persevere in the NRL. Tomkins, Crooks, Burgess, Eden all came with big wraps, but gave up when the going got tough. If they stayed they could have been superstars.

Why do they give up so easy?

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The quality of backs going across hasn't been great. I expected Tomkins to do well, he wasn't a huge flop but he certainly didn't set the league alight. The other names you mention didn't really come with big raps, except maybe Burgess, but he's one for the future, far from the finished article.

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I think your sampling is the issue; of the four you mention I would only have Tomkins down as a player with a 'big wrap'.  He did ok in his first year and his second was badly hampered by injury.

 

Both Crook and Burgess were very young to go over and while Burgess is an English international he is far from the finished article.

 

As for Eden - nobody in the UK would rate him that highly (he is talented but poor in defence and error prone) and I would suspect many would have been hugely surprised that he has got any NRL game time at all.

 

The reason why the forwards have gone better is that they are better players - it really is as simple as that.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Double post

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Crooks and Eden were never going to be anything other than reserve grade players in the NRL, barring a horrendous injury list for their respective clubs.

 

Tomkins had a number of injury issues, which curtailed one of his great assets, which was his pace, and while a lot of people will like to refer to him as a flop i also don't think that he was.

Why they don't stick around i don't know, maybe the thought of being a bigger fish in a small pond is more appealing than being a small fish in a big pond.
 

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Tomkins and Burgess are England internationals.  There are 2 issues for me, do we produce world class forwards but not backs or is it the style of play in the NRL that suits our forwards but not our backs?  

 

I'd say a bit of both

 

And lack of size / defensive ability / power of our top backs is a big problem.  We also accept high error counts from our backs as long as they can have the odd game-breaking moment or a few clean breaks.  Tomkins is a prime example of this, hailed as one of the best players in the world by people over here, and in some aspects of his game he was, but he had major weaknesses.  In the NRL you generally don't get to first grade and definitely not Test level until you can catch and defend very well.

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I think the style of play might help the forwards. Mike Cooper wasn't a megastar but at St George he was given the basic grafter role and stuck to it, averaged 55+ minutes and kept his workrate up. Every club needs at least 3 or 4 of those guys. Wingers are a dime a dozen. Look at Corey Oates who's just killing time on the wing until they need him in the forwards. Look at Maumalo and Fusitua who only got in because RTS and Vatuvei were injured. Vunivalu may not have played NRL this year if not for the injuries to Slater and Chambers.

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Vunivalu is a gun though...

Tomkins struggled with injury,not the NRL,is first season he was in the top 3 of just aboug every attacking stat..

Eden took a chance,good on him,ended up getting a few game due to injury to oates,ended up getting a contract at cas...do you blame him? Id hope hes come back better..

Joe burgess...way too early for him to go...yet souths picked him up till the end of the year...hes a raw talent,it'll do him good to have experienced it..

Ben crooks went for the experience..

To put that into somekind of context...very few centers/wingers in the nrl these days are "anglosaxon-australian..a high percentage are pacific heritage stock,they are nautrally bigger..

Jack reed goes well when fit,zac isn't doing too bad,took his try well last week,that step & fend to score showed hes not out of his depth imo..

OLDHAM RLFC

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I think they should give themselves 2 years then re-evaluate. First year is always going to be a struggle to fit into the different culture of the clubs, team mates and playstyle of the NRL. The 2nd year is when players have an opportunity to start hitting their straps.  I remember in the 90s when some Union players use to make the switch (yes, that use to happen once). It wasnt until their 2nd year that they felt comfortable in the game and started to show what they could do. Something similar could be said with players from Super League.

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Of the players mentioned in the OP, Tomkins was the only experienced international. When he was fit, he did well in the NRL. When he wasn't fit, people who wanted him to fail gloated. Those without an axe to grind appreciated his part in the Warriors' performances.

 

Joe Burgess has England caps, yes, but he's very young and was considered an early/risky pick for his country. If Charnley wasn't about to waste his next few years standing around in RU, I'd have preferred Burgess to have stayed Down Under. But that's just club-selfish from me.

 

People on TRL at the time couldn't believe it when Eden, Cooper, Hodgson and Whitehead went Down Under. Most, if not all, were confidently predicted to be flops. Eden hasn't exactly made it, but the others are doing okay.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Ryan Hall & Jermaine Mcgillvary are the two SL backs who should have come to the NRL,  I'm very confident both would have been stand outs if they'd rolled the dice.

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Hardaker could yet be a success, although I'm not sure what his best position is. He doesn't have the ball skills to be a top line fullback in today's NRL, but isn't a natural centre or winger. Otherwise, Hall, Watkins and maybe Charnley are Super League backs who could hack it, and I think Sarginson is a smart player who should do ok. I think Lomax would be a success in the NRL, but probably as an impact bench utility, not a fullback.

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Hardaker could yet be a success, although I'm not sure what his best position is. He doesn't have the ball skills to be a top line fullback in today's NRL, but isn't a natural centre or winger. Otherwise, Hall, Watkins and maybe Charnley are Super League backs who could hack it, and I think Sarginson is a smart player who should do ok. I think Lomax would be a success in the NRL, but probably as an impact bench utility, not a fullback.

 

You start by saying that Hardaker doesn't have the skills to be an NRL full back and finish with Lomax (who is very skilful) not being a full back?

 

On Hardaker.  He has moved to a new team and a new league mid season and is playing in a position to the one which won him the Man of Steel.  Considering all of this I think he is doing ok.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Correct. Fullback is the game's most demanding position because it requires players to pretty much have it all. Hardaker isn't really a ball player, but has the size, athleticism and instinct/positional play. Lomax has the skill, but maybe slightly lacking in some of the other areas. I rate them both (as well as Tomkins), but was just saying there are parts of both of their games that are a bit short of where a lot of the nrl fullbacks are at.

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Correct. Fullback is the game's most demanding position because it requires players to pretty much have it all. Hardaker isn't really a ball player, but has the size, athleticism and instinct/positional play. Lomax has the skill, but maybe slightly lacking in some of the other areas. I rate them both (as well as Tomkins), but was just saying there are parts of both of their games that are a bit short of where a lot of the nrl fullbacks are at.

 

I'm not sure I would describe full back as the games most demanding position - different positions have different demands and require different attributes to succeed.  But that is semantics - I agree that it is a key position in the modern game and one where a player can be very exposed.

 

As for the players in question.  I personally think that Lomax is a special talent.  He has been severely hampered by injury but when he has a run of games you can see that he is very talented and would have made a very good half back and is a quality full back (and still very young).  If he has a good run of form in the Super 8's and play off's I would have him as a real chance for the England squad.

 

I agree that handling is not the strongest part of Hardakers game but none the less he is a good full back.  I would actually like to see him get a run at 1 for the Panthers but that is very unlikely with Moylan in situ and also the captain.  On Moylan, I think he is one of the lesser full backs in the NRL - he has a decent all round game but I think somebody like Jack Wighton from the Raiders is a much better player.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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I'd like to have seen them give it more time.  Some of the established NRL backs who came over here took a while to get going and players/clubs tend to have been patient to the acclimatisation that is required and with good results.  Our backs perhaps go over a bit green and come back too early imo 

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I'd have like to J Burgess to have stayed longer but he wasn't getting much of a shout at the Roosters. Perhaps had the Souths opportunity (and possibly a sponsorship by a superglue company) come along earlier he'd probably have stayed out there. With Charnley going Wigan can probably now pay him what he's worth. Plus he's had some more good experience!

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Watch any international game to see why, England Forward pack as good as any if not better, but we are very weak in halves and outside backs

We struggle to pick 2 international class centre's whereas they could pick 10 down under.

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Watch any international game to see why, England Forward pack as good as any if not better, but we are very weak in halves and outside backs

We struggle to pick 2 international class centre's whereas they could pick 10 down under.

That's true. Super league defenses aren't tight enough to make them hone their skills better, and this year things have been worse again!

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Quite simply SL defenses are nothing like NRL defenses and NRL > SL. 

As for the names, well, Tomkins was not a bad player but his fee was immense so here it goes. J.Burgess is very young, probably had homesickness issues, I'm sure he'll be world class in a couple of years. 

Everything has been said about Eden, I think.

Ben Crooks was the most overrated player in the League, got into the Dream Team then got dropped to Championship. Failed to play for the Eels, which is not surprising then went back to Castleford where he's adding the errors and the games without scoring or delivering a try assist. 

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