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Peace and Love Referendum Thread


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As the EU thread is rather bitter, I offer a few thoughts in the way of peace, love and understanding.

 

- I suspect the main predictor of which way someone votes is whether they have much affinity with Europe.  If the question were posed "How European do you feel?" there would be two sets of responses: "Not at all" and "Barely at all".  The former group typically voted out and the latter vote in.  Both are responding to an emotion, no matter how much logic is attached.

 

- The former group (Not at All) might be typically older, less educated, less likely to be working etc, that does not mean they are stupider or wrong.

 

- As many people vote against their clear best interest (on both sides), they are not being selfish.

 

- Both decisions would have bad effects.  To deny that is daft.  Few of us would abolish democracy even for thousands of pounds, so while it is galling if the decision costs you money, it is worth it (unless you are in Gibraltar).

 

- Anyone who claims to vote for masses of other people is a knob.  It happens on both sides.  When someone claims to be speaking up for working people and votes against most working people, they are a hypocrite.  When someone claims to be speaking up for younger people and votes against most younger people, they are a hypocrite.  When people claims to be voting against the racists, but when most of the people who vote against them are not racist, it is low and insulting.  The was plenty of empty virtue signalling on both sides. 

 

- People who believe they are perfectly logical and rational are denying they have any problems with self-awareness.  Therefore, they will be completely irrational and are utterly annoying to discuss things with and they have shot down their brain.  It does not predict which way they will vote, there are plenty on both sides.

 

- Most people enjoy having opinions, but do not put much thought into them.  Same on both sides.

 

The only thing the sides do not have in common is (and this is just a hunch) whether they feel "Not at All" or "Barely at All" European and whether they are familiar with more bad points of the EU or good points.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Your original post is probably right.  I've spent a good bit of time in many countries in Europe and it's distinctly flavoured my mindset, I'm distinctly European in mindset.  That said, if I had to rank English, British and European it'd be British, English then European.

 

My EU journeys that have made me a good little European:

- I spent 6 months in Dortmund when in the army.  Also, plenty of cross-NATO exercises where I got to play with the other NATO forward observers and call in their big guns, that was my first real interaction with furriners and it taught me quite young that they were no different from me, apart from having ###### kit compared to ours.  I also got to see first hand the effort the EU put into first helping Germany reintegrate and then over years work with the former Warsaw Pact countries to become proper fledgling EU democracies, that convinced me of the good spark within the otherwise confused EU structure.

- I spent about two months each in Madrid, The Hague, Amsterdam and Groningen while working at one large telecoms company project managing some really exotic neural network fraud detection technologies.  Thoroughly enjoyed each place but Groningen was my favourite, just a relaxing town where I've never had such a welcome before or since.

- Six months on and off in Munich during a year of merging a German firm with a UK one.  Still my favourite restaurant ever there that I really sadly can't remember the name of, it did this lamb dish that was so good I'd easily have it again as a dessert.  I love Germany, a unique sense of humour that takes time to understand but then is recognisable as a subtle version of the British sarcastic biting humour.

- Two years spread between Bratislava, Bucharest, Budapest, Moscow, Prague and Warsaw (I know Moscow isn't EU...) rolling out a region-wide SAP implementation as part of a global rollout.  A stupidly complex project that's needlessly made so complex simply so people pay SAP lots of money up front and annually.  Five of those six countries were outstanding, Moscow was a pain, mainly due to the visa problems and me always seeming to be pulled for enhanced checks in Moscow.  I really don't look like a Serbian war criminal despite what my wife says.  Each of the five EU places brought me delights and meeting lots of delightful people, each unique in their own little way but with a common thread of decency in each of them

- Two months in Paris helping with a large takeover.  Took me a while to get the hang of Paris but once i learned to relax properly it was lovely, couldn't see myself spending too much time there on holiday but it's lovely for short getaways.

- More than enough holidays in Italy, France and other places that I'm comfortable in never bothering about having more than a few Euros left over because I'll spend them next time in a different country.

 

So, that's why I'm an ardent European, they're just the same as me but have a different language and occasionally weird eating habits, I just can't see why I'd ever consider myself as different from them.  I can also really see that someone who hasn't had that depth of experience might still treat them as them and us.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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Indeed.  I have an English Dad and an Irish Mum, I have lived in Brussels, worked in Finland, Netherlands, Sweden, UK and Germany as well as my work place in my home country in Denmark.  Family in Ireland, Italy and UK and friends all over the continent.  I am unusually European.  I oddly find like I have had part of that stripped away as I am British first and foremost. 

 

I can also see that I am far from typical in that I cannot expect everyone to feel like me.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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<snip>

 

So, that's why I'm an ardent European, they're just the same as me but have a different language and occasionally weird eating habits, I just can't see why I'd ever consider myself as different from them.  I can also really see that someone who hasn't had that depth of experience might still treat them as them and us.

 

This. A thousand times this.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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The idea of a European identity does have a negative aspect in the way it's expressed on the continent. There have been tests done in France with people applying for jobs with Italian and Algerian names and having much more success with the Italian name. It's far from uncommon to meet people in the continent that support European integration but oppose non-European immigration strongly

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It is not about not fighting, it is about not taking is personally. 

It's very hard not to take it personally when it will impact us personally.  I am genuinely trying to be the bigger man and accept this proper exercise of democratic mandate for Leave but it doesn't half make me angry.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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I've had three holidays in Europe and that's about as European as I feel.  I like international travel because I get to see new and different places, and experience new and different cultures.  I don't think such a thing as 'European' exists, other than to describe people born on the continent of Europe and so in that sense I am European but I certainly don't feel it; not at all.  I feel English these days.  At one time, before the Scots really upped their independence anty I identified as British.  These days it's English.  But I have spent two years in the States.

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You are all seeing Europe as adults who don't think Europe means much to you apart from immigration and the alleged £350bn that vanishes into European finances every year. You Muppets

I have spent days trying to convince the fishermen in Hastings that the common fisheries policy actually saved their job, because if they had the right to fish as much as they wanted, there wouldn't be any fish left in the North Sea or Channel to fish, because they would have killed them all at £f### all price to undermine the European Market.  

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You are all seeing Europe as adults who don't think Europe means much to you apart from immigration and the alleged £350bn that vanishes into European finances every year. You Muppets

I have spent days trying to convince the fishermen in Hastings that the common fisheries policy actually saved their job, because if they had the right to fish as much as they wanted, there wouldn't be any fish left in the North Sea or Channel to fish, because they would have killed them all at £f### all price to undermine the European Market.  

To whom is that addressed?

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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as previously stated in another thread,my wife is Iraqi,my daughter is born and raised in leigh,yet my wife,despite leaving Iraq for a better future,and thank god she did,is now deeply hurt by the country which helped her feel safe

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as previously stated in another thread,my wife is Iraqi,my daughter is born and raised in leigh,yet my wife,despite leaving Iraq for a better future,and thank god she did,is now deeply hurt by the country which helped her feel safe

My in-laws both voted Leave.  Both are Indian immigrants.  My wife asked her dad why Leave and he said "I don't want all these Turks coming here".  First time I've heard my wife swear in years when she asked if he was "f***ing serious"

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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I've had three holidays in Europe and that's about as European as I feel. I like international travel because I get to see new and different places, and experience new and different cultures. I don't think such a thing as 'European' exists, other than to describe people born on the continent of Europe and so in that sense I am European but I certainly don't feel it; not at all. I feel English these days. At one time, before the Scots really upped their independence anty I identified as British. These days it's English. But I have spent two years in the States.

As far as I can tell European is pretty much a euphemism for being white and at least nominally Christian. It's hard to see what else Europeans have in common they don't share with other parts of the world
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No peace and goodwill here either. I can't see this forum continuing either. Certainly not like it has done for so long and in the main, friendly. A few loudmouths trying to bully others into silence does not for a good community.

When has it ever been any different? It's always had people with very differing opinions, at times has been nasty, and has seen many folk banned permanently.

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To be honest I am shocked, disappointed and disgusted by a number of friends comments on social media. I understand its a very emotional subject. But to label people as "Xenophobic Uneducated #### is frankly way below the belt. This decision for a referendumwas a decision of one of the worst in History. The voters, especially to leave was based alot on emotion including hatred. Both sides lied, threatened and basically abused the Referendum to get a result. The venom being fired from both sets of voters to others is wrong. The venom should be aimed at the Politicians (MEP and MP) from various parties who have consistantly let down many people and abused things. Whether people like it or not Britain democratically elected out. Instead of spending so much time on this social war, people, especially the Politicians and Governemnt need to work together and make this next phase in histoty work for the benefit of everybody- not just a select few. Britain will not move forward with the current baggage around it. Its very poor that Politicians were happy to blame each other and scoff that they are not connected to many voters. The Politicians need to get closer to the people and get Society together. But I cant see that happening as its easier to blame others instead of doing the hard work.

 

The EU must also itself shoulder blame for the way it operates. It is not neutral and is influenced alot by certain Nations and Politicians. It has a clown in Jean-ClaudeJuncker that goes around threatening people like Hungary and now the UK and has pressed ahead with TTIP against the wishes of many Europeans. The EU really needs to change how it operates or risk losing further members. The EU ignored the warning signs in Britain and the problems and has paid the price. The EU will suffer from this as well just like the UK will. The question is will the EU admit its problems and change or keep operating as it has done and dividing the population of Europe?

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It's different in this way: I've met quite a few people from this forum,at games, mostly. We've often disagreed about various stuff but face to face have had a chat and a bit of bantz like.

I just can't imagine this being so with some people on here after the Brexit vote. I genuinely wouldn't want to.

 

I'm not sure why you should think this way.

 

You're able to give as good as you get, and vigorous argument is the lifeblood of the Forum.

 

There are plenty of reactionaries on here, as we've seen in recent days, but they are entitled to their opinions and in giving them they often reveal their true colours and their contempt for the opinions of ordinary working people, especially those who had the temerity to vote for Brexit.

 

I would have thought you would have enjoyed taking them on.

 

You certainly give the impression that you do.

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It's different in this way: I've met quite a few people from this forum,at games, mostly. We've often disagreed about various stuff but face to face have had a chat and a bit of bantz like.

I just can't imagine this being so with some people on here after the Brexit vote. I genuinely wouldn't want to.

John. I disagree with many, not all, of your views on this subject, but I'd still have no problem whatsoever in sharing a pint or two before or after a game with you.

I feel that way about most of the people on here who I've disagreed with over strongly held views over the years.*

*There are some exceptions. :rolleyes:

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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But I just get the impression some people are more suited to the Internet than real life.

I'm just a bit off at the moment anyway due to various stuff going on (deaths/life changes/more deaths)

I'm sure it will be right. :)

You are not wrong with your first point; the Internet is faceless - it emboldens many people who would normally run away in a discussion or argument.

That said, sorry to hear you are having difficulties and wish you all the best.

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I'm just a bit off at the moment anyway due to various stuff going on (deaths/life changes/more deaths)

 

Hope you're okay.  I had something approaching a mental catastrophe a couple of months back.  Part of that - or at least something which didn't help recovering - was overinvesting in online discussion stuff.

 

I'm happy to have a drink with any Leave voter.  I won't be changing my opinion that it's an absolute disaster and nor will I overnight stop believing something that I've believed my entire life: Britain is a great country made greater by being part of and parcel of Europe.  But, unless you actually are a virulent racist (you're not), I'm unlikely to call you one.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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